Tim Victor has worked as a youth pastor and spiritual consultant in urban missions. His aim has been to teach people how to hear from Godde and exercise spiritual gifts like prophecy and healing, announcing and demonstrating Godde outside of Christian environments and also mentoring Christians to work missionally.
Tim Victor is “a follower of Jesus intentionally growing as an envoy to postmodern spiritual seekers”. He is also trying to figure out how to grow as a husband, a father and a small-business owner. Note: Tim has committed to rendering all references to “God” as “Godde”, in blithe disregard for patriarchal norms, as an amalgam of the Male and Female aspects of the Divine.
Do you as a Christian find the shamanic metaphor irrelevant, threatening or promising?
Promising, without a doubt. The concept of shamanism lends expression to much Christian practice while offering a framework for understanding and enabling people to enter into the practice of spiritual encounter, including revelation, healing and guidance.
What in your experience is the churches attitude towards the primal, the healing arts and the shamanic?
Reactive or dismissive rather than proactive and engaging. We’re all western people who discover Christ and/or Christianity. Christians usually inherit the western suspicion of all things that aren’t western as well as the tendency to be closed to spiritual experience. This usually results in novel ways of explaining away the activity of spiritual beings and the experience of Godde.
I often experience Christians as trying to explain away the primal, the healing arts and the shamanic. The Christian view on Godde – Father-Mother, Son/Risen LORD, and Spirit – adds another reason to actively ignore and reject the primal, healing arts and shamanic – faithfulness to Godde.
Are there existing Christian ministries you are aware of that you might term shamanic?
I’d have to abuse the term shaman a bit and create a loose definition but I think the answer is yes. The shamanic involves altered states of consciousness, which is achieved through various means, as well as contact with the spirit world. I’d say movements like the Vineyard, New Wine, Partners in Harvest, the Pentecostals, Quakers, the various Christian mystics are shamanic along with many I haven’t mentioned.
There are also a host of counselling practices and healing centres like the Healing Rooms, the practice of Inner Healing, the Theophostic Prayer model, the Vineyard Model of Ministry, etc. which can all be loosely classified as shamanic. The spiritual disciplines of fasting, prayer, worship, meditation, etc. are also related to altered states of consciousness and communication with the “spirit world”, as are things like speaking in tongues, receiving visions and dreams, and prophesying, which and may also be termed shamanistic.
From this point of view the shamanistic thread continues throughout Christian history and is closely related to the core of Christian spirituality – connecting with the Spirit of Christ.
In any community that you create, what might you see the role of the shaman to be?
I think the notion of the shaman can definitely reflavour and revitalise the role of the pastor. The pastor has generally been a community leader most recently redefined around the practice of a counsellor along with the skills of the businessman. He (usually a he) also has to be a skilled orator.
I think the time of the shaman-pastor is dawning, as the curator of sacred space and sacred experiences. Here the central role becomes one of representation and facilitation, showing the path and enabling others to walk the path of spiritual experience as part and parcel of everyday living. I guess this is kind of like spiritual direction but involving communities and facilitating the encounter between Godde and the community.
Besides the pastor, what other roles might be enhanced?
I think we’re seeing a general redefining of roles as the necessary functions in community shifts. Hopefully the focus on “spiritual experience” will be part and parcel of the whole community.
Do you think Christians should be experimenting with things like altered states and plant medicines?
Christians already experience altered states of consciousness. The experience of Godde is itself an altered state. Manifestations of the Spirit like shaking, rapid eye movement, falling into trances along with receiving “words” and “visions” are also altered states. A number of spiritual practices like fasting, prayer, waiting on Godde, developing a constant mindful awareness of Godde’s presence and voice at all times are all altered states to our ordinary state of consciousness.
Plant medicines in a shamanic context refer to “psychedelics”. These “medicines” induce spiritual experience. The person and work of Christ Jesus removes the barriers between us and Godde. This removes the need for elaborate rituals and drugs. We can easily enter into an experience of Godde as S/He likewise wants intimate experience with us.
I think our practice of spirituality is linked to who and what we encounter when we have meaningful spiritual experience. Psychedelics may have benefits in many other contexts but I don’t see their use meaningfully contributing to encountering the Spirit. I believe that a natural spiritual experience remains primary.
What do you mean by a “natural spiritual experience”?
When you have a natural experience you are who you are and can meaningfully share an experience with others. When you induce an experience in a person there’s randomness and altered perception. How can you tell what is real and what isn’t when you’re perceptions are being altered? How can you meaningfully share an experience when people are heading off into different directions? If that’s the purpose of the encounter that’s fine but the point is for everyone to meaningfully connect with Godde then natural experience is necessary.
What might the dangers be of accepting or experimenting with the shamanic with Christian or western community?
The territory of shamanism is a new one requiring a bit of pre-thinking before entering in. If I took up diving I would need to do some research and learn the basics. Then I’d have to step out of my comfort zone into an unsafe experience and reorientate myself. I’d be introduced through someone qualified to do so. In short, there are safe and wise and practical ways to start diving but where is the parallel with shamanism? More to the point, where is the parallel with Christian Shamanism?
I think it’s very dangerous for people to throw themselves into something like shamanism without some pre-thinking and without hooking up with those who are “qualified” to introduce others. One of the core concepts behind shamanism is openness to the spirit world. There are very real and very personal spiritual beings out there with their own agendas. Part of the safety aspect includes who we’re becoming introduced to and how.
One of the other dangers relates to our living and being in the world. There is a degree to which shamanism threatens western civilisation. Shamanism integrates humans with their environment and focuses on relationships. This means that shamanism essentially critiques the west. Our civilisation, which means Western and Christian complicity via participation in systemic evil in raping and pillaging cultures and the environment, is likely to find it a threat.
In the interchange what might western spirituality have to give to primal cultures?
Primal cultures are going extinct. This is a harsh reality. By hearing them out and integrating them we give them a new people group to be a part of. We can contribute to the longevity of their wisdom for living by integrating it into our spirituality.
Western spirituality is quite broad and so I will speak of Christ Jesus’ contribution. I think the major contribution Christ brings is wholeness and healing. Jesus’ people group, His sacred tribe, consists of “every tribe and tongue and nation”. As such, He affirms primal cultures. He says “you are valuable and meaningful and I want you as part of my people”.
This differs starkly from the west that says let’s remake you in our own image, your invaluable and we’re here to plunder you for all we want. There’s also a prophetic vision here. Christ’s country will have space for primal cultures just as it will have space for our culture. This affirms that He is Godde over all, including us. There is hope and a future for primal cultures. We may not see how now, but when His kingdom is the only kingdom this will be the case.
Western spirituality is informed by the contributions of the sciences. Education can bring freedom from charlatans and superstition. In relation to spirituality, people are often powerless before spiritual beings along with sickness and disease and deformity. Primal people often don’t have access to western methods of healing and so suffer from conditions that there’s no hope for. Jesus brings healing. To illustrate, I know a man who has seen a person born without eyes grow a set of eye when Christ instructed him to lay hands on the person and command them to grow. There are many accounts like this.
Jesus sets people free from evil spirits. I’ve seen a person sliding around like a snake and heard other voices shouting through people in response to the presence of Godde. Having seen evil spirits release people through a command, empowered and authoritative through Christ Jesus, is simply amazing. Many primal people know about Godde but only interact with intermediaries. Christ comes to fulfil primal cultures too.
nathan said
Hi my name is Nathan I had just recently gone to a “Christian psychic” and she had channeled “ascended beings” I was and still am skeptical of this. It seems as though it contradicts the bible. I was born and raised a Christian and I have a strong faith. Any ways this master nieako said that my interest in nature and plants has to do with me being a shaman in a past life and that I should start to look into it again… Well I was just hoping you may have a few words of wisdom for me.
Timothy Victor said
Hi Nathan,
A number of psychics and often spiritism oriented groups, movements and individuals loosely reference themselves as Christian. They often see psychic and mediumship as the same thing that the NT speaks of as “spiritual gifts”. We can easily consider being psychic or a medium as a spiritual gift just as we could consider speaking in tongues and prophecy and healing a spiritual gift. However, here “A” doesn’t equal “B” even if the label “spiritual gifts” is used. The source in both cases differs. Jesus gives us access to Godde: Father-Mother, Son/Risen LORD, and Spirit. There is no need for any other intermediaries. It’s also worth noting that they often set people on a different course which leads away from Jesus or to another Jesus.
I believe the starting point is your choice of journey. Are you interested in pursuing Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit or are you happy pursuing a Shamanic path with whichever spirit guides you land up with?
Nic Paton said
Hi Nathan
Thanks for being open about your situation. I find it rather interesting. Your skepticism is a good thing, as Tim said above one should always find out about any claim to truth.
I am skeptical about reincarnation, partly because of my evangelical background and partly because of ignorence. I am also skeptical about “ascended beings” – it sounds exclusive, and I am not sure how G-ds grace fits into this doctrine.
Nathan, you should consider the possibility that you are called to be a shaman, in THIS life. How this might happen, well that’s an exciting journey in faith.
In addition to Tims insights and challanges, I cover several issues that you might need to consider in previous posts, especially regarding one’s position with cannonical scripture, if that’s what you believe. It’s not easy to reconcile these things, it requires much work and soul searching. But it’s a worthy venture.
Gavin Marshall said
Tim – with regard to “intermediaries”, I’m not sure if you’re referring to shamanism, or the ‘ascended beings’ of the psychic. I just want to comment that in my experience, and in much of the reading that I’ve been doing, one of the shaman’s goals is to assist a person to go on their own journey, to have their own encounter with the Ground of Being. While a shaman may make use of various guides or various plant medicines, the goal isn’t to get someone reliant on these things, they are tools to teach someone how to experience ‘divinity’ for themselves. One also needs to bear in mind that the shaman’s way of looking at the world is very different to that of western christianity so one needs to be careful when using terms like ‘divinity’, ’spirit’, ‘God’ etc.
With regard to a ‘natural spiritual experience’; One could argue that an experience within the context of a shamanic ceremony is much more natural (Nature), than the unnatural setting of a church building, with the possibility of hypnotic suggestion, emotional manipulation (music), etc. I’m not saying these are always bad – just that there is usually a context for a spiritual experience. As to whether one can be sure whether one’s perceptions have been changed – surely any spiritual experience involves a change in perception?
You also mentioned the need to meaningfully share an experience where sacramental brews are involved. In a shamanic context, these are usually consumed within a ceremony which includes other people. Part of this often involves sharing with each other after the journey, and possibly with others (like I did in my interview and with yourself and Nic)
With regard to christianity having no need for rituals. It may not, and yet it still has rituals which can be very meaningful, so I think it is unfair to compare the two on those grounds. As mentioned elsewhere on this blog, the practice of fasting, silence, dancing, meditation etc. can all be tools to achieve an altered state of awareness where one is able to connect with the Ground of Being in a meaningful way. These are tools – disciplines and practices – and exist for that purpose. I would say the same thing of these sacramental brews.
nathan said
Wow thanks guys, that is some great information and feedback. I guess I am just very intrigued by the session I had with this woman. I am very open minded but carful at the same time. you se I don’t want to stray from what the bible says I don’t want to go down a path that takes me away from the truth of God. i guess my question is can you use shamanism as a tool to speak to God as well as help others with God being the focus? As I have done some research I understand that shamans talk a great deal about spirits and spirit guides. Is this contradictive to the bible? Can I replace the spirits and spirit guides with God?
timvictor said
Gavin, I was commenting on “spirit guides” as intermediaries. The other stuff is debatable but I’m not convinced that I want to pick anything up here.
Gavin Marshall said
Nathan – I think the key is to find something that works for you and fits within your belief system – assuming you really believe in your belief system. This is a journey, and is something that you need to embark on and experience. Knowlege is is a map, it can never be the territory.
It also seems like what the psychic told you has woken something up in you. I wouldn’t worry about whether psychics are ‘wrong’ or ‘right’ – the Universe speaks in all kinds of ways if you’re willing to listen.
Nic Paton said
Nathan
These are weighty questions. They present us with genuine opportunity and real danger at the same time. Only a deep wisdom, and probably a mature loving community (or relationship) will be able to keep you “grounded”. Almost all shamans are intitated by “elders”.
I think Tim is wise to point ask “Are you interested in pursuing Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit or are you happy pursuing a Shamanic path with whichever spirit guides you land up with?” as it highlights the fact that when we “dabble” we can be open to things that may prove harmful.
However, I don’t think he means to set up an either / or situation here, because I know he believes the shamanic path to be valid. In this question he is simply saying “Do you know what you are letting yourself in for?”
I’d suggest you continue to meditate on scripture, asking the question “What sort of shaman might I become?” There are various models – Moses, Jeremiah, Hosea, David, John – all with different emphases.
Of course you need to understand the shamanic in itself, without “biblical interference” as well, so you can come to a well informed point of view.
I think you have the seeds of your own answer here:
“Can you use shamanism as a tool to speak to God as well as help others with God being the focus?”.
timvictor said
Nathan,
You will most certainly find a lot of helpful stuff in Nic’s other posts. Gavin’s perspective is rooted in moving away from Christianity toward other religion/spirituality with the current exploration including shamanism. My focus remains on historical Jesus who is the risen LORD along with the dream/kingdom of Godde.
I believe the challenge is precisely the one you raise and one I identify with – how do explore other models of spirituality with a view to integrating what’s valuable in them while keeping our goal and focus on a genuine relationship with Godde? I say this as one genuinely committed to integrating African, Eastern and Western spirituality. As the various spirits involved in the wide variety of spiritual and religious practices shape the practice I fail to see how one can be a true shaman. You’d have to be picked out by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit.
The general pattern is: 1) a spiritual being breaks into the life of a human being and chooses them as a representative; 2) that person serves as an ambassador to a community; 3) the community goes about their chosen lives and is able to relate to their spiritual being personally and through the envoy.
This phenomenon is common despite that the names and faces of the people and spiritual beings change.
As people seeking to appropriate what we find valuable from other cultures, religions and spiritualities we have the opportunity to distinguish between the cultural framework and the religious/spiritual focus or objective.
In my opinion, you’re now adding another source, another spirit, to your menu of spiritual guidance. You are faced with two options or paths in terms of who you’re going to relate to. Here I’m not speaking about the insights and contributions of the human side to shamanism, which is a valuable endeavour. I’m rather talking about “who” you “speak to”, “hear from” and “experience” when you will in future talk about your what you see, hear and who you connect with.
It is your choice as to who to put forward as the primary: Godde through the Holy Spirit or another, perhaps many other, spiritual being/-s you find intriguing because they speak and act.
Christians (here I’m not commented on the abusers and deceivers but on the healthy and good) empowered by the Holy Spirit speak what they hear from Godde and join Godde in what S/He is doing. All Christians are called to grow in this as ambassadors of the dream/kingdom of Godde. Every significant representative of Godde’s dream/kingdom in history is an example of what you or I or any other person can be and do.
I would recommend that you 1) explore the person and work of the Holy Spirit and 2) explore the lives of notable Christians who, empowered by the Holy Spirit like Jesus, heard from Godde and joined Godde as S/He did amazing things; 3) seek intimacy with Godde so that out of relationship you will discover that S/He speaks and acts in and through you.
Nic Paton said
Gavin/Tim
You guys are representing different facets of this exploration. Tim is consciously placing himself in defined Christian community, and asking his questions from within its embrace. Gavin is consciously outside of that, having “let it go”, and is on a path of relinquishment.
Both views are valid. Gavin is is a state of unknowing, especially as he has had a recent epiphany, whereas Tim is well aware of a creating a conscious path.
There is a “a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak.”