I mentioned in my post about Universal Restoration the story of Bishop Carlton Pearson. For those who have any interest in the debate concerning beliefs around eternal destiny, aka Heaven and Hell, this man’s journey is significant.
Pearson was branded a heretic by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops in 2004, for his version of UR, called the “Gospel of Inclusion”. For the sake of his doctrine (read “faith”), in giving up hell, he found that his congregation fell by over 90%, he was forced to give up his church building, and he virtually lost his entire ministry.
Most painfully, he fell out with many friends and loved ones including the great (in pentecostal-charismatic terms) Oral Roberts who saw him as a son. He paid a heavy price to break away from the 1500 year old ideology of Ultimate Fear, and embrace a radical expression of Grace.
The scandal of Carlton Pearson is qualitatively different to what we have come to expect from the Church. Crucially it has not involved hypocrisy, as in extramarital liaisons, pedophilia, embezzlement, or substance abuse. No, the scandal of Pearson is not unlike the scandal of Christ, who took on the religious-political-cultural establishment for the sake of G-ds rule of Love and Justice.
Take a listen to Carlton’s Story on This American Life.
Watch the MSNBC coverage.
Browse to the website for his church, New Dimensions
Pearson links on Universal Restoration website Tentmaker.
His involvement with Wisdom university in his hometown Tulsa, Oklahoma, at a seminar called Sacred Activism and the Power of Inclusion.
janice brown said
Say what you will Mr Pearson, but a literal hell awaits you………..in the mean time do us all a favor and get lost…………….shut your fat blashemous mouth,,,,,,,,,,,,,so you and satan will have something to talk about when ya get there….
Nic Paton said
Hi Janice
Thanks for your comment.
I’m not convinced that you gave it much thought, however.
Why you feel so strongly about Bishop Pearson and what does it benefit you to say the things you do?
This “Literal Hell” – there are 3 words translated hell in the new Testament – which one are you meaning – Sheol, Tarturus or Gehenna?
Nic
Jason said
i am personally floored and offended and a lil hurt that someone that i admired and respected has fallen from grace. Bishop Pearson was once a true man of God but im not sure what to call him. However the Bible does speak about the “very elect” going astray in the last day. I dunno i just pray that all those souls that he has messed will find the true and living God (JESUS CHRIST) and i hope the bishop will too..
healtheland said
“No, the scandal of Pearson is not unlike the scandal of Christ, who took on the religious-political-cultural establishment for the sake of G-ds rule of Love and Justice.” Oh please. The religious-cultural-political establishment is 100% in favor of gay rights. The President and Congress refused to let states vote on a gay marriage amendment, the Vice President of the United States has a lesbian daughter, and the President has been known to be “gay – friendly” ever since his college days. And these are all REPUBLICANS! The only people that oppose homosexuality in this country are Christian fundamentalists, which you well know to be a decided minority, even among Christians. And as for Jesus Christ Himself, He stated “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Funny how a lot of people who love to throw around His Name seem to forget about John 14:15. Some, including Pearson, claim that Jesus Christ never said anything against homosexuality in the Bible. What they are ignoring is that Jesus Christ’s DISCIPLES did so later in the New Testament, and it is unfathomable that they would have opposed Jesus Christ in their later teachings, or would have accepted Paul if he did. Second, John 14:15 is merely restating what was given in the Old Testament in Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 5:10, Deuteronomy 7:9, etc. As a matter of fact, virtually everthing Jesus Christ said restated or fulfilled something in the Old Testament. What did the Old Testament say? That homosexuality was wrong. Jesus Christ Himself said that He came to fulfill the law, not to end it. Which means that He did not come to make what was sin under the law was no longer sin, but rather He came to change the way that sin was forgiven; through faith and repentance rather than through sacrifices. And why is John 14:15, which talks of keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ, correlated with Exodus 20:6 and similar, keeping the commandments of God? Simple: because Jesus Christ IS God, and said so Himself. If Jesus Christ is not God, then there is no reason to pay attention to anything that He said, let alone have a religion based on Him, because not only is He a regular man like you or I, but He was a liar, a cheat, and a blasphemer who created a movement that got Himself, his brother, and many millions of His followers killed over a lie (millions of Christians were killed by the Romans alone); a movement that a corrupted version of which later started becoming the persecutors itself (the Inquistion, Crusades, Holocaust, and similar … even the brutal Marxist regimes were a form of wayward Christianity stripped of its theism; Karl Marx was a disaffected Jewish convert to Christianity). So, if it is permissible to disobey the commandments of God, then Jesus Christ was never God and Christianity is a lie. If that is the case, then the “grace” of which you speak is nonexistent to begin with.
Nic Paton said
Hi Jason.
Thanks for stopping by, I welcome your POV. I am sorry you feel Pearson has fallen from grace, and that you have felt hurt by his “coming out” in support of Inclusion.
From where I stand, however, he has fallen INTO Grace. He has encountered a generous, embracing, forgiving God, who like Jesus is not afraid to consort with “sinners, gays, and universalists”.
Tell me if you will, how exactly have his actions hurt you?
Hi healtheland
Again, I thank you for taking time to express your feelings.
I have to say that you seem to be fairly obsessed with the Issue of “Gay rights”. I’d venture to say that Pearsons revelation has only a little to do with homosexuality per se. It’s often those who shout the loudest about a particular topic that have the most unresolved issues around it.
And healtheland, what are your feelings about a God whose love is so great that he is “the savior of all men”, according to 1 Tim 4? Is this inclusive gospel not good news? Or is the fact that like Jesus, Carlton was not afraid touch your untouchables with the love of God, simply eclipsed by the fact that the word “Gay” has been mentioned, and ignored the bulk of the message of Universal Restoration.
This means that EVEN Fundamentalists and Republicans, yes even George Bush Jr, are going to be welcomed into Gods great Arms. I’m just so glad its up to God and not me.
Mark said
Hey Nic,
Certainly some emotion been thrown around this subject! No comment at this stage as i don’t feel i have given it sufficient thought. Thanks for lunch the other day, and Russ if you read this it was great to meet you.
Cheers
Mark
Sea Raven said
Hi Nic. … just visiting.
If healtheleand stops by again, I would invite him to do some serious study regarding how the early Christian Way began, and how the new testament was put together. The latest scholarship (in fact, scholarship since the early 20th century, if not earlier) is clear that the new testament writings were not the fulfillment of earlier “prophecy.” I highly recommend a good course in biblical literature and history.
D. Mason said
I just watched and listened to both sides of the story. I myself being a pentecostal, I feel almost ashamed to be a a part of this great demonination. God told us to LOVE one another NOT to bash or to condemn. That is NOT our job. God is our judge and him alone. I am not going to give an opinion one way or the other, but, I am going to say to all those that are SAVED and are in opposition… DO NOT judge less ye be judge! If the truth is really told we ALL come short of God’s glory. Always remember that when we are speaking into the lives of others we DO NOT want to be an accuser of our brethren that is the job of the enemy. I am sure Bishop reads these messages from time to time and we do not want to condemn him. We should be letting him know that even though we may not fully agree with the doctrine in which he teaches we are still his brothers and sisters in Christ and we are in constant prayer for him.
Bishop,
I want to apologize for the hate mail that you have received. I love you. My prayers are with you continually that you will seek the face of God continually and always be found doing his will.
I am my Brothers keeper!
David Alexander said
Thank you for this post and spreading the message of Carlton’s amazing story and journey. I’m sure that it has only just begun and we can only imagine at this moment what lies ahead. I am grateful for his courage and faith in God. I am convinced that the world is in need of more Love, Compassion and Inclusivity – not less of it.
Lead on Bishop, Lead on…
Nic Paton said
Thanks to all who gathered round to give this debate some balance. I notice that the inflammatory writers have not responded; the tactics seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Nevertheless I am glad they have voiced their opinion.
This universalism under discussion is not cheap, clearcut, nor an easy position to hold. Thanks to you who have acknowledged your tentative stances. As important as the issue is to me, I don’t feel that I have any right to insist that anyone else holds the same POV. My feelings are of gratitude for Grace, not the need to persuade anyone.
But I would ask you to examine the hidden agenda of Ultimate Fear. It may take years to deconstruct, as it did with me.
D.Mason – I appreciate your view that we do not judge. Those who espouse universalism do so on that basis – that G-d alone is the Final Judge. Thank you for your generosity.
David – thank you for your unqualified support. Do you find yourself in a minority where you are?
Sea Raven – yes I think a far better Biblical knowledge is what is missing. I am interested in your statement “the new testament writings were not the fulfillment of earlier prophecy.” Do you mind clarifying for our benefit please?
Nicole said
Sad
Evangelist said
I cannot believe this, although “spiritually speaking” I do – Jesus warned of this in the LAST DAYS – Matthew 24.
I used to listen to Pearson a lot – had much respect for him too. Now I know why I haven’t seen him in awhile.
My take on it is this: The Word of God (Bible) is where we (especially belivers in Christ) should turn when something like this arises. It’s a waste arguing with “man” about what they/we think. What “Is Written” is what it boils down to.
And It Is Written:
The rich man (who lived for himself/without God) died and lifted up his head in HELL and saw Lazarus (a poor man full of God that the rich man disregarded when alive) in HEAVEN in the bosom of Abraham and asked that his family be warned that HELL really exists – the rich man feared his family going there. Abraham denied his request and said they either believe the Prophets/preachers on earth or they don’t. The rich man also said he was tormented in the HELL he was in – Luke 16:23 (KJV). Abraham also went on to say that there was a gulf between HEAVEN and HELL so that no one could pass from one side to the other – this was said when the rich man asked Abraham to make Lazarus bring him some water – read Luke 16.
It is Written: But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresises, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious (evil) ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of – 2Peter 2 1-2 KJV. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to HELL and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; …. – 2Peter 2:4
It is Written (Jesus said): : for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members (Pearson and all like him) should perish and not that thy whole body (other believers who have enough since/Bible understanding not to believe him/others like him) should be cast into HELL – Matthew 5:29.
I’ll cut it there, but there is much more “God Proof” from the Bible that HELL IS A REALITY. I study the Bible enough to KNOW that Pearson is lost, is seriously deceived by the devil. I am saddened and will pray for him. The Bible says in Romans 1:18 that the wrath of God is poured upon all who hold the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. It goes on to say that these people put Christ to an open shame. The open shame is the fact that they CLAIM to be believers.
However, Jesus said my sheep (children) know my voice, a stranger’s voice they will not follow. Thank God through Jesus I know his voice because I know His Word – The Bible/His Word is His voice and anything that goes against His Word is not of Him – is of the Devil/HELL.
Peace & Love
Evangelist said
Referencing the Thou shall not judge remark/s:
The Bible’s Words/Voice is not of man but of God. God would not have said obey me and take the time to give us a manual (Bible) TO FOLLOW if He did not want us to OBEY it. Man’s judment is anything that contradicts what is written in God’s Word – that’s when thou shall not judge comes in. And Pearson’s Words don’t line up with God’s Word; therefore, God is judging him (based on The Bible): And God says He Is A FALSE PROPHET reserved for the chains of HELL, if he does not REPENT before he leaves this earth/dies- 2Peter 2: 1.
God still loves pearson. God loves us all. But if we end up in HELL, it’s not because God wants us there; it’s because we chose the route we chose – FREE WILL is from a loving God. God gave us the way through Jesus and His Bible. It’s up to us to take it. Amen
Jesus warned of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
LKJ said
Thought this apt to the discussion:
“Contemplation is more than a consideration of abstract truths about God, more even than affective meditation on the things we believe. It is awakening, enlightenment and the amazing intuitive grasp by which love gains certitude of God’s creative and dynamic intervention in our daily life. Hence contemplation does not simply “find” a clear idea of God and confine Him within the limits of that idea, and holds Him there as a prisoner to Whom it can always return. On the contrary, contemplation is carried away by Him into His own realm, His own mystery and His own freedom. It is a pure and virginal knowledge, poor in concepts, poorer still in reasoning, but able, but its very poverty and purity, to follow the Word “wherever He may go.”
Thomas Merton. “New Seeds of Contemplation”. New York: New Directions Press, 1961: 5.
May all who enter before G-d in this sacred cyber-spot be carried away by His divine love; carried to the certitude of their own liberation. May all who arrive with judgement come to healing.
nic paton said
Hello Evangelist, thanks for your contribution.
The concerns you raise, especially regarding the notions of Hell and Heaven in certain New Testament translations, are very valid. I don’t have all the answers, and am on a road to a better understanding of scripture. To unpack these concerns adequately is beyond the scope of one blog response. It is best served by entering a conversation. I have been in the UR conversation now for not even a year (but have been a Christian for 29 years), and dealing with the concerns you raise are a big part of it.
Very briefly, my understanding of the Lazarus tale is this:
1. It is a story, a metaphor, and specifically not literal.
2. The context of this chapter is wealth and its underlying value, not Eternal Punishment.
3. The word translated “hell” in v 23 is in the Greek Hades (Heb Sheol). The meaning of this word relates to the underworld, the hidden, the world beyond the grave, not as most would have it, a place of Eternal Punishment.
4. The chasm is that which separates the Kingdom of God from the Kingdom of this world.
5. The rich mans torment is brought about by his refusal to accept the values of this Kingdom, despite the fact that he now sees the inversion of his worldly, mammon-based value system. Perversely, he even wants to warn his brethren despite his own lack of repentance.
I do not believe we can conclude from this verse that he has been cast into Eternal Punishment by his Creator.
Evangelist, according to 1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.” I believe you are motivated by Fear. Fear greatly distorts how we read scripture.
If you are really concerned about heresy, I would propose to you that the Doctrine of Punishment you preach is the actual heresy here. Universal Restoration – that God is the Savior of All Men (1 Tim 4:10) – was taught by early church fathers such as Origen, and declared a Heresy in the 6th Century CE as part of the takeover of the Church by the Roman Empire. This Fear of punishment was and continues to be used as a political tool to keep religion dominating true spirituality.
Fear closes the mind like nothing else. Have you listened openly to Carlton Pearson’s Gospel of Inclusion? I had the privilege of hearing him talk on the Gospel of Inclusion and his message is suffused in Grace. His universalism is no cheap new-agey everything-goes inclusivity; it has come with a heavy price. The hatred of many of his ex-followers is a continuing source of grief for him, is how it comes across to me.
I find the most hopeful part of your response to be the last words, “Peace & Love”, because I know that these cover over a multitude of misinterpretations.
nic paton said
LKJ
Thank you for your reflections and willingness to enter the fray.
Despite having to defend certain things robustly and with reason, underlying my convictions is a loving Creator who helps us escape the madness brought about by fear, so what what Merton says about “enlightenment and the amazing intuitive grasp by which love gains certitude of God’s creative and dynamic intervention in our daily life” rings true.
Evangelist said
Nic,
Since you want to be technical about Hell: Hell is a reality – it’s not so much an issue of flames or no flames – that’s not the point. HELL is a matter of being ETERNALLY cut off from God. Life on earth first, which, without repentance, leads to an eternal HELL post this life. Jesus said: Not the hearers of the Word are just before God but the doers (obeyers) – James 4:17.
From Adam & Eve to date, the greatest stumbling block between man and God was/is OBEDIENCE. Before Jesus, there was no excuse – man’s inability to obey God magnified the fact that we CANNOT obey God on our own. The flesh/carnal mind is in total opposition to the desires of God:
[For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would – Galatians 5:17.]
Post Jesus: Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the LIFE. No man get to the father accept via the son (John 14:6-9 ). Jesus’ death gave birth to the answer/solution of weaknesses to carnal desires ( sinful nature): The Holy Spirit, which does for man what man cannot do for him/herself:
[Jesus said- “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (Holy Spirit) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” - John 16:7-8]
Meaning man has no more excuses for not serving God. Post Jesus, it’s not a matter of I CAN’T. It’s simply a matter of I DON’T WANT TO. God’s Spirit dwelling in us (post accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, sincerely) gives us power (Acts 1:8). Power to overcome carnal/worldly temptations/desires. Power to obey God. You see you don’t have what it takes to obey God without God. Jesus set the path for God to do it for us, by living in us. That’s what Jesus meant when He said:
[“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever will lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it” – Mark 8:35]
Losing your life (earthly desires/self-thinking) means that you OBEY God/live your life according to His Word. How does this result in gaining your life? You gain his protection on earth (life of heaven on earth), and when you die, you also get to go to HEAVEN: Eternity with God. Saving your life means just the opposite: You live the way you want on earth (life of HELL), and you end up living eternity in HELL.
I agree with Pearson as far as HELL being apparent on earth today. Why, because God has been excluded (God will not fore Himself on us) from everything – people trying to lead God rather than obey (be lead) by God. As Shirley Caesar said, “It’s a sad thing to live a life of HELL on earth and then go to HELL – being ETERNALLY cut off from God. The difference between HELL on earth and Eternal HELL is that as long as one has breath (on earth) there is time to REPENT. But once you leave your body, your destiny is your destiny, as noted in Luke 16.
As far as your “Fear” comment. Are you projecting? I said nothing about me feeling that serving God is out of FEAR. I love God. His peace is beyond anything this world has to offer. If I did not know God, have a personal relationship with God (meaning living for Him daily, not just on Sunday), I would be ashamed to be a part of this world, truly. I mean I turn on the television to here constantly about kids being molested, raped, abused, kidnapped, etc – unthinkable acts! Adultery is on the rise. Violence. Famous people on drugs, in rehab, in jail, dead, etc. Little to no respect for family values – people divorce like they change clothing. No regard for what we allow our kids to be exposed to on television or any aspect of life anymore. According to society (Hellish living) fornication/sex as recreation is “so cool,” even for kids. Yet it gives birth to unwanted/uncared for babies, diseases (some incurable), broken homes, etc. The above is life without God (His Values).
Let’s keep this “Universal Living” moving: We have more people on mood altering drugs for anxiety, fear, etc. than ever before. What in life is causing this? Universal Living! We are at war. Our men and women are dying as we speak. Innocent Iraqian men, women, and children are dying (not all people in Iraq are evil). And Why are we at war? Uhhh… We are NOT totally sure why we are at war – the reasons change with the weather. War is usually (sometimes war is necessary) the result of greed, arrogance, unforgiveness, impulsiveness, hate, spite, presumption!
Let’s keep it moving: How our country treated its own during the Hurricane Katrina aftermath- worse than animals . Wow! How cool is “Universal Living”? God said love thy neighbor as thy self – we don’t have to agree with all but love all. All this so called Universal Living goes against the Bible. My focus and heart is more on the society that our kids are growing up in than anything! To tell a child that is being abused sexually, emotionally or whatever, that the people who do such things will still be able to sit around the table in HEAVEN with God, despite the acts they commit. And what about the people who commit such acts, you are basically sending the message that they can continue in horrid behavior with a the comfort that HEAVEN still awaits …. That’s REDICULOUS – HELL! Why not just do whatever we want and still be seated in HEAVEN: Why wouldn’t a married man or woman cheat with this logic. Why wouldn’t someone rape another. Why not tell a lie. Why not steal, kill, etc. Why not sex and drug our brains out. This is not God! And to accept the Bible (as is) means that people have to change said behaviors, and they don’t want to, which is why this debate is going on, which is why it’s easy to dispute HELL. Be careful what you tag God’s name to though:
[Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption (HELL); but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (HEAVEN) – Galatians 6: 7-8.]
I could go on, but the condition of the world is the result of man doing/living the opposite of God’s Word/Bible. Hmmmm… So it would seem God is smarter than we are. That there is a reason for him giving us a manual on how to live: The Bible. Most people see it as punishment, FEAR inducing, but I see it as LIFE/LOVE, a better world. God does not say “Thou shall not….” because He wants to keep us from living. Quite the contrary, said behaviors give birth to very grievous consequences, as noted above (and that’s the tip of the iceberg). So, again, I don’t serve God out of fear. I serve God out of LOVE/RESPECT. This “Universal Living” crock is just that: A crock of HELL!!
What He made available to us through His son Jesus, is love. I am raising my daughter with the values of God’s Word everyday – not just on Sunday, living for God is a Lifestyle. And I see the difference in how she acts and how her unsaved/universal friends act (they are 11. She acts 11. They act 20: talk and dress the part too. Very Scary!) .Within reason, welcome her having friends from all walks of life, as long as she is not asked to compromise who she is/how she lives – we have won a lot of souls to God this way. They pay more attention to how we live, not what we say. My daughter is taught to respect herself and others. Most importantly, God. God through Jesus is the best gift I have given my child. She glows with the love of God. So again, there is no fear in my home/life regarding God. I don’t serve Him for fear of HELL either. I truly love God. He is the sunshine in all of my days. Light in a dark and lost world.
Fear (spiritual connotation) is anything that goes against God’s Word. It is the opposite of FAITH. Fear is the devil’s biggest tool. Perfect love does cast out fear. What does that mean (the Bible says in all your getting get understanding)? First of all, let’s deal with the issue of LOVE: According to 1John 4, God is Love. And fear = Devil. So let’s look at 1John 4:18 again: with said realities in place: Perfect love (God) casteth out the fear (Devil). Meaning when you allow God to be God by living according to His Word, you have no reason to fear anything in life or the life after this life.
This is a challenging venue to discuss such an issue. However, I am thankful for it. My position is clear, and I respect varied positions – Free Will. I have typed enough here for my position to be VERY CLEAR. I’m not in pursuit of affirmation. Don’t need it! God is my reward. However, knowledge is power/life. And if this saves just one soul from the depths of HELL, there will be a party in HEAVEN – Luke 15:11-32.
If there is anyone here who wants to know God the way I do, I will not leave without affording you the gift in Jesus name. Read it first. Let it penetrate your heart. Understand it. Believe it. Then speak/pray it to God. It won’t work if you don’t mean it:
Dear Lord
I believe that Jesus Christ is your son. That He died on the cross and rose on the third day and still lives. I admit that life is no life without you, that I have missed the mark/have sinned. I welcome your forgivness, your Holy Spirit, your life dwelling in me. In Jesus name! Amen
Simple act but life changing.
If you said the above prayer, there is a party in heaven for you ( ). You are probably like, “Now what”? email me at day_4rain@yahoo.com and I will be more than happy to assist.
Peace & Love
Evangelist said
Nic,
One last thing, why don’t you take the Bible in totality. Heresy and denominatinalism is centered in people taking what they want out of the Bible and ignoring the rest. Basically telling God how to be God – funny.
Seriously though, God warned that we should take ALL of His commandments or none.
It is written: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of the prophecy (Bible), God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City (Heaven), and from the things which are written in this book” – Revelations 22:19 Means you will go to Hell for doing such.
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” – Galatians 1:8
Thank God for REPENTANCE, which is available as long as you have breath.
nic paton said
Evangelist – This is not a conversation, just a pulpit for your views. I don’t really have the appetite to sling any more words around. Go well.
Evangelist said
My pulpit is my life. My views/life are God’s Word in totality. I don’t talk what I think. I talk what I know – God’s Word.
Oh, what a glorious God we serve!
AngerInTheFlesh said
Nic and David, I love your views. I will be visiting with you soon… Hopefully you two stay the same until I get there, this projection thing is all new to me.
Blessed Be
Don R said
Nic- Didn’t know you had a blog. You have attracted some quite interesting comments. There seems to be more readers and commenters on your posts who are ensconced in the fundamentalist camp. You know my position well. I appauld you for your stance and your excellent responses to the “fearmongers”. We love them inspite of their position. I, like you, have no desire to fling scripture back and forth like fiery darts at each other. The main reason I choose not to do so any more, is that I am not even sure exactly where I stand on NT writings. I am so amazed as to how far I have journeyed in the last two years. I wanted you to know how much your comments are appreciated on my blog. Please continue to visit and comment when you wish. I am linking to your blog. Blessings…..
Evangelist said
Don,
What since does it make to have a BLOG that is centered around the BIBLE and sling everything except BIBLE scriptures? That’s like taking somebody to court and and using evidence from another case/arena. There would be no case without related evidence.
It’s interesting that Nic derived a great deal of pleasure out of insulting and challenging people with little to no knowledge of the Bible. But when it came down to FACTS, Bible based, he had nothing to say – lost his appetite. Truth is: Who can contend with God (God is His Word). NO ONE!
nic paton said
Evangelist – this is the last time I will respond to you on this blog. I’m leaving your contributions as they are but from now on I might choose to delete them, as I feel you have overstepped the mark of trust and hospitality.
For the record then,
I acknowledge that you have a sense of compassion for victims of war, imperialist regimes and natural disaster. This is Christlike. I see you as human, as a human trying to obey God, just like many of us.
But Evangelist, or WHATEVER your real name might be, that doesn’t mean that the way you witness and communicate is good or right.
To deal with your comments then, [sic] “What since does it make to have a BLOG that is centered around the BIBLE and sling everything except BIBLE scriptures?”
I have never claimed that this blog is centered around the bible. The bible forms part of it, but that is how you have subjectively read it.
“It’s interesting that Nic derived a great deal of pleasure out of insulting and challenging people with little to no knowledge of the Bible.”
My responses to those who say things like [sic] “shut your fat blashemous mouth,,,,,,,,,,,,,so you and satan will have something to talk about when ya get there….” were neither insulting nor pleasurable. They obviously were challenging, yes. I have no idea how you can claim to know what I find pleasurable, that’s just immensely arrogant.
“But when it came down to FACTS, Bible based, he had nothing to say – lost his appetite.”
You were happy submit several thousand words of your own interpretations, yet when I offered mine on the Lazarus story, you simply ignored them. To claim that I have nothing to say about the bible is ridiculous.
I suggest you consult someone who knows about the art and science of hermeneutics, about how to read the bible (or any other text), they will tell you that it is key to understand what is intended literally and what is intended metaphorically. Your analyses show no insight into this skill.
What is “Universal Living”? Did you just make that up? I have never heard of it and yet you are actually claiming that this is what I espouse. It is simply unfactual and irresponsible. If you are going to critique what I say, rule 1 is “I must have said it”.
Evangelist, I acknowledge that your attitudes have made me angry. I have attempted to “speak the truth in love”, to be clear and fair, to be factual, and yet its fairly certain that you won’t see it that way. The way God sees disussion/discourse/argument, I believe is with Grace. There is no easy way to the truth – I can see you know that.
So in closing, what I have lost my appetite for is not the Bible, but ignorent, smug, deluded, self-righteous, arrogant, one-sided religious rhetoric devoid of skill and insight. My prayer is that these attitudes will not be found in either of our lives.
ruZl said
thanks one and all for your earnest & passionate debate here, on universal restoration. however much our more literalist fundamentalist brethren might hate it, the teaching of UR seems set to demand ever greater exposure and debate.
i recently disclosed my belief in universal restoration to someone very dear to me. i was aware that the topic raised lots of feelings in both of us, and yet thankfully it never resulted in biblical hurlaneutics & whipping.
i must say Evangelist that i have found your approach and tone quite off-putting, impatient & lacking the humility that surely must accompany the genuine discussion & exploration of the Ultimate Mystery – God. as far as your online name goes, could i suggest Human, QuarkMonkey, John, Open, LoveFire, NoughtButHim or a thousand other possibilities?
you may believe in an unending torturous hell, a place devoid of God – that reflects your current understanding and we are happy to engage you as we explore together. but please, PLEASE, don’t salivate about hell over us. don’t assume you know anyone’s standing with God so as to stand in judgement, while idolising your knowledge of the bible.
where there is knowledge, it will cease and at best, our knowledge of God will forever remain incomplete until our final union with the One, as whole beings made in the image of the Divine.
towards this we stumble and seek.
adios.
ruZL.
Evangelist said
nic and followers -
Your anger is at God. I speak His Words ONLY. I rejected your Lazarus (interpretation) because God says it’s WRONG. Everything I wrote is of God via His Holy Spirit in me. If you stop consulting man and consult the Holy Spirit, God’s teacher on earth, you will learn something. See what you need to see.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as the were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2Peter 1:20-21 Holy Spirit wrote it and is the teacher -John 16:13
God does not want any of you to go to Hell – that’s why He sent me here. Just as Jesus: He spoke it, some received and some rejected/fought it. Have you ever considered that if you are wrong (and you are), “You will go to Hell, eternally”? Something to ponder! God sent me here, nic, because He loves you, understands ignorance. Say the prayer I noted and allow yourself to be “born again.” Then, and then only, will you see the light. Amen
My work is done here! Erased or not … …..
Peace
Evangelist said
P.S. Universal Living = Universal Inclusion, Nic.
C’mon, no grasping for straws (lol). To have a Universal-Inclusive mindset … one must live it, hence Universal Living = Hell.
Junaid Bedford said
Hi everybody, this is the first time that I shall be commenting on this blog. I am a Muslim and I want to learn more about other religions and philosophies because as one increases in knowledge it’s as though one rises higher up a mountain enabling one to see a wider and greater view of reality. Thank you for all your contributions and for taking the time to arrive at better understandings.
I believe in a God of Mercy, of Compassion. I would like to share an Islamic view as regards God Himself. I don’t know yet of other religious views on God as I have not yet put any serious effort in to learn about other faiths, but it is certainly my intention to do so in the not too distant future. I am just very busy at work and with studying at the moment for University.
The first verse of the Qur’an describes God as the Most Merciful of those Who show Mercy. (Qur’an – 1:1)
The Prophet Muhammad (s) then further explained this by saying that God has one hundred parts of Mercy and has kept its ninety nine parts with Him and sent down one part to Earth, and because of that, its one single part on Earth, His creations are merciful to one another, so that even the mare lifts up its hoofs away from its baby animal, lest it should trample upon it. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73)
I believe that it’s within this context that we should hope to journey to that life which is beyond the grave.
Thanks, Junaid
Nic Paton said
Hi Don
You have visited before – you commented on my original UR post!
Thanks for your comments – I share an amazement at how far I have moved recently. It’s this sense of awe that helps to remind us that we do not know everything, and keeps us humble, dependant and joyous. Lets keep in contact…
Junaid
I welcome you and thank you for your excellent and beautiful comments and quotes. The passages from the Qur’an are beautiful. I fully intend to make a full and open hearted study of this text at some point, because the disinformation and prejudice between faiths, specifically Islam and Christianity, is covering the world like a shroud, leading to all sorts of calamities and terrible hatred. So it’s a pleasure to hear from you… please do come back.
Jeremy said
hi Nic and all who have commented
i have been following the dialogue and it is very interesting. i see value in all comments but are not really sure of the point of all of this. is convincing our minds of a certain belief sufficient (it is this same convincing that can lead to deception where we get caught up in eterial realities with no practical expression of the very essesnce of our faith). what is most powerful out of the scriptures to me is when we love our neighbour.
so when last did any of you dialoging here go out and feed a person who was hungry or just hold someone dying to comfort them or just sit and listen to an old person reflect and realase (Repent) some of their earthly struggles.
we have to be careful we dont get detacched here (me Too)
all this dialogue cn become meaningless whitout its attachment to practical expression
in heaven as it is on earth
jeremy
ps Hi Junaid
heres a thought ! what if christainty was and is not meant to be a religion but rather a way for all, a way of grace, what you do is not attached to any condition (do good …..get blessed etc) but rather that the starting point of your doing is this. everthing has been done and so you flow with life a life (in christ) helping him wrap up the reconciliation plan of which on aceeptance you are already a part of through grace.
sounds good hey …… think about it
you dont do to get…. you have got already….. you do to live and express what you have got
Nic Paton said
Hi Jeremy
I am 100% behind the idea that all theology, abstraction and thought needs to lead to Life. This Life needs be Incarnated, made flesh, enacted in space and time. Acts of Mercy such as what you propose are exactly what will witness to this Life. I touch on these encounters too seldom; but as an example take a look at this encounter:
http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/you-told-me-your-name/
Jeremy, if I might take the liberty of framing your passion in words: you are talking of Incarnation. I am deeply in the process of relating the two things, Incarnation and Inclusion. A blog is a tool whereby thoughts can be refined and conversations followed. It is not an end in itsself.
I am tired of theology, if truth be told. But G-d is not yet done with me. There is a time to think, deconstruct and reflect, and a time for sacred activism and creativity. This doesn’t mean these things are mutially exclusive, quite the opposite in fact. I have a suspicion about the importance of Inclusion issue, and I am giving it my whole heart. This includes being very well informed, which I intend to become.
The outcome of this process will be love, grace, mission, but if there is any ambivalence in our foundation, our efforts will be flawed, perhaps totally flawed. I have seen enough – several decades worth – of half-baked activity based on dubious teaching whose source is not grace but fear, to know that unless the building is built by Truth, the labourers will labour in vain.
I look forward to working with you to bring to fruition those yearnings of yours, which are based in compassion and a desire to love.
SteveW said
Nic, keep speaking your heart. Too bad that some, who claim to be leaders with titles are so quick to denounce and so harshly judge people they know nothing about accept that their doctrine isn’t “approved” in their own mind. “They love to be called Rabi”….or what ever title of the “five fold” they see themselves as identifying with.
It is little wonder that so many people want nothing to do with the religion of Christianity that is so frequently represented by such thinking and raving.
Our Father didn’t fail when He sent His Son to be the Savior of the World. Too bad so many “believers” don’t believe it. But quite honestly I was just as narrow minded for way too many years.
It takes courage to stand for the gospel of God’s grace & peace Nic. Have courage my friend.
Jeremy said
thanks for your comments Nic
it is true things are complex and truth needs to be spoken and lived as Jesus did (incarnation i guess) that what is i am really into as a believer. inclusion and what Carlton said is in some way a threat to traditional thinking and i would need to understand more so i look foward to further comments. to include as many as possibloe is what Jesus would have wanted but there is also a limit (wonder if he would have writen evanagelist off by now? no offence evagelist we might be on the same side?) and where do you say no more or exclude? the heaven and hell thing blows my mind a bit i can understand completely ignoring hell and only seeking the heavenly but to consider its non existance is a bit challenging
this is good stuff if our intentions are pure and we have security in christ our lord. As much as i know Nic you are a person of great integrity
may we all be blessed through seeking his face
jeremy
SteveW said
Jeremy, there is no way that the Savior has written off Evangelist or any of the rest of us. When He died to redeem the sins of Adam, He did so totally. We had no choice in our participation in the cursing and neither do we in the redemption. He bought us back with His own blood…Evangelist, Janice, Nic and All. Whether or not we make Him our “personal Lord and Savior” is not the issue. The issue is the Father made Him both Lord and Christ apart from our involvement. It is finished and we need to add nothing to it.
It is true that we all haven’t partaken of the salvation of that fact of our redemption because salvation is of the mind. But to think that the loving Savior took the keys of death and hell just to turn around and cast the vast majority of mankind into it because we don’t believe the correct religious doctrine is absurd and very sad indeed.
I know this is all very new to many reading here and that is understandable. It was to me only three years ago. It takes a while to work through a lifetime of religious instruction to see the immensity of the grace of God.
Whether or not anyone agrees with Nic or I, may you all dwell safely in the grace and the peace of God.
Don R said
Nic- That’s what happens as we age….We forget! Sorry I didn’t remember visiting here. I can’t believe I didn’t link to your blog. That, however, is now remedied. Don’t worry, you are now a regular stop on my blog-reading route. I have throughly enjoyed this particular post. It has reinforced for me why I left my fundamentalist faith. Two years ago, I too, would have been angry with some of the commenters. Today, that has changed. Anger in that particular area has been removed from my life. When I see the anger, even hatred, expressed at ideas from your post, it reminds me what I found so odious about the doctrinal system of fundamentalism. I believe that 59 years in that system as a church leader (deacon) allows me to speak of that I know.
nic paton said
GROUP HUG!! You too, Evangelist.
I feel that this posting might need to have a biography written about it. It’s been through a lot of twists and turns, just like life itsself. All we need is for Carlton to contribute; which he may well do – he emailed me a few days back.
Jeremy
This heaven and hell things does indeed blow the mind, and it IS a threat, a very very big threat, to traditional thinking. What is interesting to note in Steve and Dons responses how there is an epipheny invloved regarding the “Greater Hope”/Inclusion/Universal Restoration that can happen decades after any other revelation of Grace. That is certainly the case with me. The implications are enormous for life – thought and deed. I am exploring this in my post Incarnation Inclusion and Hell, so please feel free to contribute. I do like the way you apporach things so candidly – let’s all dive into the truth together.
Steve
Thank you so much for you support. It seems you have trod a similar path to mine as far as Grace goes, and I welcome that experience. It’s good to know you are looking clearly at “the beast” ( I mean fear, not anybody in particular) sometimes, but even better to know you are held.
Don
Well you top it as far as church-dentials go then: 59 years. I often ask, where are the elders in this age? As I remind people, you are also an historian. That is immensely valuable.
BTW have you read Cannon Farrar on Mercy and Judgement (1877, 500+ pages)? Excellant scholarship on the topic of “endless damnation”, quite comprehensive and totally mind blowing, but a hard read. It’s on tentmaker – http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch1.html. I’ll be posting more when I wade through it, and do a post like “Mercy and Judgement Lite”.
nic paton said
Who (in the US presumably) saw the ABC 20/20 show last night, “Heaven and Hell our fascination”?
All I have to go on is the online comments, see http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=3356360
If this were an election judging from the most recent 14 comments its neck and neck (7 apiece). A good barometer. More analysis would be helpful, though, there are looneys in each camp.
geo said
Nic
Hello, I am Geo from Bold Grace dot com.
I know Don and Steve personally and these two are two of the most Grace Filled men I have ever had the privilege of meeting. I too like Don and Steve am in my 50’s and was a deacon and elder in the church of christ for over 25 years. Five years ago after those 25 years of hell fire and brimstone teachings I began to explore for myself what I truly believed about God and Jesus the Christ. And it was a journey that took many twists and turns. For one to two years I fought the thought that God could reconcile ALL. But the evidence was too overwhelming to deny. And it IS TRUE! God has Reconciled ALL. Carry on my friend! And if you are anywhere close to Indiana the weekend of AUGUST 3-5, 2007 You are welcome to join us at the FIRST ever GRACE GATHERING!
Here is the link http://gathering2007.cliffhazelbaker.com/
Grace & Peace
Geo
nic paton said
Geo
A warm welcome. I shall give the links a good read.
Alas I am in Cape Town South Africa. But I wish you the very best for your gathering (I love that word – its definately free from the baggage associated with “service”).
In the meantime; are you saying there has been some work done there on the links between the Incarnational and Inclusion?
And did you see ABC show last night – I’m itching to hear about it.
geo said
Yes Nic I did see it!
YOU WROTE:
In the meantime; are you saying there has been some work done there on the links between the Incarnational and Inclusion?
Work done where? I am not understanding the question.
You can go to our voice message bord and leave a voice message on your beliefs about HELL here http://www.vaestro.com/viewtopic-978#
the Topic Title is: HELL
All you need is a microphone connected to your computer in order to comment.
Sure hope you will
Peace
Geo
bruced said
It amazes me how some people can miss the message of the Cross so completely.
We see what Christ accomplished, and what was revealed about our relationship with God, but still we fear. That fear drives us to worry. We worry about the strength of our beliefs… about the correctness of our theology… about the validity of our doctrine. Our fear drives us to strive endlessly in our attempt to measure up to our perception of an overly demanding God. We allow our fear to divide us from those who don’t believe “correctly”. We allow it to push us past civility, into aggression. It begins to control our lives, and pushes people away from us. It brings anger and bitterness into our being, and manipulates us like a stringed puppet.
The Cross of Christ set us free from fear, but we don’t believe it. We continue to believe it is up to *us* to make things right with God. But the Cross revealed that it’s not up to us at all. The Father communicated His incredible love to us with all certainty, but we look right past Him into a reflection of ourselves. We continue to dislike what we see, but we can’t realize that we shouldn’t be looking at ourselves at all. We should be looking at the Father, and His amazing, perfect love.
We are the wheat and we are the chaff. Very soon, our wheat (the spirit of God within) will be separated from our chaff (our earthly bodies, wants, and desires). Then, we will have the answers we seek as we become one with the Father. Why do we worry so much? Why are we so confused? Why can’t we simply rest in His promise, and enjoy life?
nic paton said
Hi Geo
What I meant was study – writing/blogs/audio, trying to understand the relationship between the mystery of Inclusion and the mystery of Incarnation.
Hi Bruce
It’s good to a deep and well formed approach like yours. Your thoughts are uncannily like those I had in http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/being-hit-on-the-head-with-a-pulpit/
ruZl said
hi all.
i feel Nic makes an important point about being tired of theology on the one hand, while needing to wrestle with certain central tenets about G-d on the other. theology never made a holy man yet and yet has twisted untold millions of believers through guilt & fear.
i’m not sure when it was – probably around a year ago – but i suddenly realised that the teaching of a never-ending & purely punitive hell – as opposed to one that was for a time and intended to purify & restore – was not one i could shove under the carpet.
a year later, i now perceive the maistream evangelical view of G-d as deeply dualistic & schizophrenic. it reminds me of the terror of a young boy who believes his father to be gentle, nurturing & compassionate, for this is what he has experienced. one night he happens to walk down an alleyway and comes across his beloved father beating someone savagely with a crowbar.
children the world over have to live with such cognitive dissonance, caused by abuse at the hands of those they love and trust. and yet this is the very picture of God that we impress on the world. loving and kind to the family but like a mafioso don to outsiders. obey or die!
i understand the resistance, suspicion & anger that the universal restoration position raises. and many of us here can entertain the notion that a firey purification, rebalancing etc might have to occur after this life. but perfect love casts out all fear, which has to do with punishment & i believe that the purpose – the dream of you – out of which G-d created every particle of creation will one day be realised.
thanks one and all.
russell.
Jeremy said
Hi Nic and others
i must say hell makes for more sense if its role is for purification this could fit nicely with beginning of James. i suppose it might take a while to convince me. Jesus died for our sins which would have left us going where? so does christs death negate the fact there would have been eternal damnation or what is its primary purpose? how as “Jesus is our lord” people do we just relase the pre-cross reality of damnation? i find this difficult to grasp unless i am missing something here
comments…
jeremy
Don R said
Jeremy- I, personally, have never heard of a pre-cross reality of damnation in the OT or NT. A lot of the confusion could possiblly lie in the translation of Greek or Hebrew words in English.
Don R said
Nic- Do you have VHS-type video cassettes in S.Africa? I may have a source for the 20/20 special on Hell.
nic paton said
Jeremy
This UR thing has been a year of hard thinking and unthinking for me, and thats not long by some standards. I’m in the process of nuts and bolts scriptural re-reading and I am increasingly alarmed and amazed at how we can consider hell to have eminated from scripture. Most of those who adopt the position have done so later in their lives as wisdom began to emerge. The best portal to this is http://www.tentmaker.org/. Start with Samuel Dawsons “Jesus teaching on hell” – http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
The key question is around the original Greek meanings for “hell” and for “eternal”, which will radically alter the meanings as we as evangelicals have assumed.
I’m not clear if this is what you are asking, “If all are going to be saved then what is the point of Jesus having died?”. The answer to that is “to save all”. Jesus remains key to the whole question.
I agree with Don here – there is no pre cross reality of damnation. There is one word in the OT, Sheol, meaning hidden, or grave. Any notions of damnation read back to these scriptures were pagan/roman. I am coming to realise that Eternal Damnation is an invention of the post-augustian Roman church.
Let have an inclusion indaba…
nic paton said
Don – thats really kind of ya. Only snag might be our video is PAL, not NTSC, the north american standard. Is it possible to get on PAL?
ruZl said
hi Jeremy.
it was good meeting you at the gathering @ Nic’s place a few weeks back and look forward to spending some more time with you when we’re over next. the whole universal restoration teaching represents such a massive shift from our shared roots as evangelical christians, that i’m still piecing things together.
i sense you’re open to looking at it as a possibility and would recommend that you get Nic to forward a few key links from tentmaker.org etc, if he hasn’t already done so.
go well meantime, russ.
ruZl said
G-d = ULTIMATE ARTIST or ULTIMATE ABORTIST?
just a thought….
if we look at current quantum physics and in particular chaos theory, the science strongly suggests that every particle throughout the universe is connected. for those of you are interested, read the overviews of chaos theory & bells theorum on wikipedia.
IF every particle or “thing” is connected, then how could G-d incarnate in the person of Christ without profoundly effecting & ultimately changing ALL things/particles and souls made in the Divine Image? the leavening principle springs to mind here.
Jesus said, “what u do to the least of these, you do unto me”. i always used to assume Christ was being figurative here, but why? i bigger boy whipped my son with a stick on his hand the other day and he bawled! and as his father, IT HURT!
also, why do so many christians react so violently to physical abortion of babies and yet fiercely hold to the belief of the mass abortion of souls on the day of judgement?
maybe, just maybe we CAN trust G-d with our selves & our loved ones, our obsessions & secret sins – our fallenness. and maybe as chaos & quantum theory suggests on the physical plane, the divine incarnation destines ALL to ultimately react perfection on the spiritual plane – whether that take a single lifetime or millennia.
as sparks of the Divine Image, i find it deeply congruent, reassuring and logical that G-d wills to restore each spart to it’s original & intended condition.
…and that the incarnation forms the dynamic process, moving towards the Divine Idea, dreamt before creation and still held in the heart-mind of G-d.
as THE ULTIMATE ARTIST, should we expect anything less of G-d?
nic paton said
RuZl
Well I have been meaning to respond to you for some time, thanks for your ongoing support, thought, holding.
I think your above response is opening a profound window between new science and UR. I am nearly finished James Gleick’s classic “Chaos”, and not yet able to put it in perspective. Next up is Lynne McTaggarts “The Field” which I know you have read. Strangely my interest in both these popscience works is mor to do with the nature of light, than theology per se. We weave a web…
Gleick talks of Goethe vs Newton who seeminly were both issuing theories of light at the same time (need to check that) Anyway Newtons Optiks lasted and Goethes work disppeared. But recently, Feigenbaum who is one of Chaos’s heralds rediscovered Goethes romantic take on the topic, and its all suddenly redifined the problem for him He saw Newton as defining light in scientific terms, while Goethe did it holistically. We all know that Newtonian thought held sway until the modern era – Einstien/Plank etc. So there is an uinteresting link between the categoriesed/discontinuous thinking of enlightenment rationalism, and the new holism. Its inspiring and exciting, this “new age”.
So to get to your relating of salvation and interrelatedness, thats very interesting. And YES to the idea that G-d is an artist, and the incarnation a dynamical system (to use Chaos terminology).
Good man – keep it coming.
Rob said
Hoom… What is exciting for me and perhaps, now, it deserves its own topic is quantum physics forcing us to take responsibility. No longer can we see outrselves as passengers in a fixed unfolding universe that we have to subscibe to and find the right buttons to push, but rather we are intimately tied up in the dymanic unfolding of reality that is affected by our very observation of it. If you try to feel the ripples in a pond by putting your finger in the water the ripple pattern changes because of the presence of your finger. And so it is with our presence in the universe. Now there is inclusion in a big way.
ruZl said
Rob.
quantum inclusion eh? i think we need to flesh this out some more between ourselves & run with it for the sheer joy of it. Ooooh, G-d so obviously LOVES paradox.
a new thread Nic?
the way i see it, Christ used nature as a metaphor on SO many occasions, it’s not like we’re limited to vines and sheep. if He’d incarnated two thousand years later, he may well have been using analogies drawn from quantum physics.
the universe: every molecule, network, environment & experience ripe with meaning. as we should expect from the Ultimate Artist.
over to youz,
RuzL.
nic paton said
Sheeze who do you think I am, James Gleick?
Rob and WeZl – I agree this discussion is reaching another shore, I am pondering how to take it onwards. Suffice to say then, I find quantum mechanics hard to grasp, see through a glass darkly. But intuitively, I appreciate it, it all points to the embedded meaning in the universe. As a poet I get excited, even if “the mind is unfruitful”.
Non condo bondo shondo, rikki tikki tikki ninga noom …
karen said
Just came here via a tipoff from DonR.
Wow…someone wants to save us all from ‘hell’ (which one? Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus? Wink to DonR) If it’s the Hades, or the Unseen, then we’re already all saved, thank you very much, by Jesus, not by some anonymous commentor. And the word “eternity” is mistranslated from the Greek. It’s only for an eon. . .not for eternity.
Todd said
WOW! Evangelist’s comments are amusing. It’s amazing how someone so uninformed can be so self-assured. You (Evangelist) say you are such a great studier of the bible? Then why not learn Hebrew and Greek (the original language of the bible), much like Bishop Pearson has done, and study the original context? I understand that you do not like to think for yourself and that may be a little too taxing for you. It was man that translated the original context into English. Do you think this was inerrant? Uh, don’t answer that question. “God does not want any of you to go to Hell – that’s why He sent me here. Just as Jesus: He spoke it, some received and some rejected/fought it.” – Did you just compare yourself to Jesus? Mr. Evangelist, I’m beginning to think the voices in your head are not one of God, but possible one of the many personalities you have been infected with. I will pray for you. Carlton Pearson is a courageous man. He is an educated man. You sir, are not!
john Ayedze said
well it is a disappointment to me for i really like the man Pearson he is more then a roll model for me but with this doctrine of inclusion i think he has to humble himself and reconsider his stand.no revelation contrary to the word of God (Bible) is from God I still love him but totally disagree with this doctrine of inclusion Please Bishop come back it is not too late
karen said
The Bible is the infallible Word of God. The English translation of it, however, is not.
nic paton said
John
I think I understand how you view this; how you think Carlton has abandoned his faith. I approached him with caution, but have found that as I have heard his arguments and his heart, that he is a prophetic leader, pointing to new and exciting territory. If you are going to engage the Gospel of Inclusion, you really do need to have an open mind and get back to the original meanings contained in the scriptures. I wish you all the best; courage and discipline.
Karen
Well and succinctly put. Both the Latin Vulgate and derivants of the King James have done immeasurable damage as far as perpetrating heretical, fear based notions go.
Interestingly it is the conservatives that have helped me to re-evaluate this whole area (Pearson (republican pentacostal), Louis Abbot (Baptist), Cannon F W Farrar (Anglican)), and yet a conservative I am not. Truth is bigger than our persuasions.
AMT said
It’s amazing how we feel “our” experience with God is how it should be for everyone. Each of us could write an epistle that would make the New Testament a continually updated book. If you have never ventured to see what God is doing in your community or city outside of your church or pastor, you can’t understand or hear where Carlton Pearson is in his relationship with God. Each of us will be stripped of all the doctrine, people, personalities, and things we are propped up on claiming to be in faith and going with God. When your comfort zone is tampered with, your resources are limited, you like Job, like Carlton, like me will see what you really believe about God, faith , everything. If your gospel is according to your pastor, tradition, affluence or anything other than what is required of you, get ready for the vulnerability to walk in faith, sometimes only knowing that God is and the He loves you very much.
It takes alot of courage to go against the norm, especially when you have been exceptedby the inner circles and given privileges and amenities to comfort your flesh and stroke your ego. Much love to you Carlton for sharing your experience with us and encouraging others to trust where they are in thier journey.
Nic Paton said
AMT
Your view is fresh, open, expectant.
“Each of us could write an epistle that would make the New Testament a continually updated book” – I like that A LOT. We have tended to put scripture above experience, and our own interpretation of it for that. An incarnational relationship with G-d has to do with how the word lives within our story, not an abstract set of propositions.
Mark said
Simply put, I believe Rev. Pearson and agree with him 100%. As a Catholic, I’ve spent most of
my adult life (and childhood) believing in Hell and that I might go there if I did or did not do certain things. I don’t see myself as anti-Catholic. In fact, I believe at the heart of Catholicism is the same message Rev. Pearson is preaching. For some reason it has just gotten mixed up, filtered, etc. because of power and greed. I was happy to see the special
on MSNBC and be able to identify with someone who “gets it”. My next trip will be to a bookstore to see what I can find on Rev. Pearson and his new teachings. I think he was right on when he mentioned something about Christ would be unhappy with what Christianity has become (generally speaking).
I see Rev. Pearson as a prophet and a spiritual revolutionary. In fact, when Oral Roberts said Rev. Pearson was going to lead a new spiritual movement, I don’t think he had any idea how right he was.
Nic Paton said
Hi Mark
Thanks for that comment. Yes, I think the prophecy is often quite separate from the “vessel” bringing it!
If you want an easy, catholic-backgrounded study, try Martin Zenders “Martin Zender goes to Hell”. (http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Zender-Goes-Hell-Un-Criticized/dp/097098491X). (In fact if you are in South Africa I’ll mail you one)
If you are theologically up to it, FW Farrars 580-page “Mercy and Judgement” (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch1.html) is the best thing I have read, and he is seriously “orthodox”, believing wholeheartedly in the Church Universal’s tradition and the scriptures. And anything else at Tentmaker too.
TU Mrs. said
Nic,
Great blog! Informative, respectful, and diplomatic.
I’m a religion major, and at times, I am stupefied by the Christian who represents the epitomy of proof texting, and yet ‘he or she’ is so ill informed.
What is it that scares the ‘ill informed’ into reacting with such a venomous confrontational attitude that typically begins with, “as it is written,” or “the bible teaches us…” and finally “heresy” makes its way into the conversation.
Is it irony, that as a religion major, I cannot hold a conversation with most christians because they have no idea what I’m talking about?
Again, great blog!
Nic Paton said
Thanks Mrs./Tu/Mrs.
I think a good starting point is to try unlearn Christianity. That may not be totally possible, but it must be the goal of all who are serious about the adventure of spirituality. One has to be prepared to walk into a wilderness, as a “reject” of the church and a not-yet of what is emerging as one revisions this life from G-d’s point of view. Carlton Pearson has demonstrated the before-after pictures of making such a huge move away from religion and into the arms of G-d.
ruZL said
“ALL YOU DAMN ICLUSIONIST HERETICS ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!”
i just wanted to try that mental t-shirt on for size, just to make sure it still doesn’t fit – phew! this has developed into a great thread, with a variety of angles & convictions coming to the party.
I believe in hell, for sure. Checking BBC news this morning, i came across the story of Joanne Coombs, the english mother who recently ended her life on a rail track, at the same point where her daughter died a few weeks ago. apparently the house was just too empty without her.
no doubt Joanne was living in hell, for what could be more torturous than your child being snatched by depression from you. i don’t believe suicide has any glory in it. and neither does the “hell” taught by the majority of christian groups.
it’s initially scary to step outside of what we have been taught and to seriously ponder alternatives. i for one respect Carlton Pearson for doing so. the vast majority in his previously comfortable position would not do so, at least not so openly.
Nic Paton said
Well let’s deconstruct Sir’s T Shirt a bit then, shall we, Ooh Sir.
Damn – this means to stop the flow, to cut off.
Inclusionist – this means acknowledging the innate interconnectedness of all things.
Heretics – this means those who have an opinion different from the prevailing orthodoxy.
Hell – that means hidden.
“EVERY OPINION STOPPING THE COSMIC CONNECTEDNESS BECOMES DIRECTLY HIDDEN.”
You are right, it’s too small for my biceps and makes my bum look too big.
Nic Paton said
Less facetiously, people do indeed experience “hell” in this life. They experience torment, isolation, cruelty, and confusion and it sometimes gets too much.
It’s inconceivable that certain people (usually preachers or semi/professional christians), fail to empathise with misery such as experienced by Joanne, and choose rather to piddle about with self righteous doctrines such as the “sin” of suicide.
The failing here is squarely with religion and its inability to enter into the simple compassion which Jesus spoke of.
ruZL said
Nic.
two great retorts my friend.
i luuurv it!
ruzl.
Andrea said
Hi, I went looking for the meaning of ’shondo’ and somehow ended up here. Surfing.
I’m non-denominational Pentecostal but I’ve been an annihilist for years. I thought if Abraham could believe God then so can I.
Why does anyone assume that all the people in their church agree with their doctrine anyway. I haven’t found a Pent church w/out the hell. I want fire but not with the brimstone; love my church but I just argue with them.
I’m an annihilist and I DO NOT WANT you to change my mind. When ‘Evangelist’ and others were sayiong CP would go to hell – since when do any of us get a theology test at heaven’s door?
If were wrong about the Hell thing – I’m very certain God is not taking pointers from me – He’ll do it His way and I’ll like it.
be blessed, I’m going off to find that dude Carlton – I like what I’m hearing.
Oh and the whole homosexual thing drives me crazy. The church can point its stubby little fingers at Gays bc its not the churches sin – Bc they won’t let them in – we have all the adulterers and pedophiles. I have yet to meet any one without somekind of sexual sin that they would not want to lay out before the Lord. I don’t know of any sin to big for the Lord to deal with even if its for the rest of your life. Grace day by day just like the rest of us lousy lousy sinners!
nic paton said
Hi Andrea
Welcome. By annihilist, what do you mean? It sounds interesting…
I don’t see anyone as a “lousy sinner”, BTW. We sin, sure, but that fact is not as big as the Grace of G-d.
Andrea said
Yes, sin is sin and I’m as good at it as Paul or Peter so I figure compared to Jesus we’re just sinners.
I was an atheist that Christ thought enough to save so I’m always very in touch with my beginnings and still in awe of His grace.
As an annihilist – I do not believe God is glorified by the idea of roasting the same humans he died to save.
But I bow to His wisdom. I absolutely believe we are drawn to Christ not scared into heaven.
be blessed, got to run. Nice site – looked into CP – a little over the top for me. Experience says he’ll come back around with growth. We usually tend to shoot past the mark
Nic Paton said
Andrea
I think that what you mean by annihilist is that G-d will eventually annihilate (destroy) all evil, rather than merely punishing it.
The doctine of annihilation is one of the 3 possible Christian eschatological approaches:
1. Endless Punitive Separation, aka Hell. All things evil are kept separate for ever.
2. Annihilation – after destroying evil, only righteousness remains.
3. Universal Restoration – all things return to the Maker (after purification). Grace triumphs.
Pearson Supporter said
There’s nothing “sad” about this situation, except that Christians are so brainwashed they can’t see in front of themselves.
Sounds to me like Bishop Pearson is an honorable man who is actually using his brain, rather than mindlessly bleating like the hateful sheep who have left so many messages here.
Faye Camp said
why don’t a lot of you check out tentmaker.org with an open mind. so many things have been added to and subtacted from the bible over the centuries. so muxh of the greek and hebrew words that were orginally in the bible have been changed also. i got to thinking myself “would a God send someone to hell just because that person did not have any way of learning about the Almighty??” what about all the millions of people down through the ages who had no way of learning about God, are they in hell through no fault of their own? would like to see your views on this. tentmaker.org is worth checking out.
Faye
Nic Paton said
Hi Faye
Yes, tentmaker.com is an excellant resource. You will see that I have linked to it (right of page). My best bits are FW Farrar, William Barclay, and Louis Abbott.
I think your starting point “would a God send someone to hell…” is good. When we can gain the courage to ask this question, and to do some work (study and thinking) I believe that it is answered.
As we begin to realise that our understanding of G-d (our theology) is flawed and partial – for this is humility – we become open to new ideas, and realise that ALL truth belongs to G-d, and that us Christians do not have the monopoly on it.
Valencia Dobbins said
For some, I totally agree and believe what Rev. Pearson is saying and going with his belief statement about Hell, etc. As a church-going person all my life I have had some doubts about the teaching in which I think is power to control our minds, what we do, in what we believe, etc. I totally support what Rev. Pearson is saying.
Valencia Dobbins said
To Faye, you are definitely on the money with your statement. It does make you wonder about the teaching that are being taught to God believing people. Who truly know the truth? Can any of us say it is truly a place called Hell or Heaven? Have anyone be there and came back with proof of these places? Religion is like a control substances…
Nic Paton said
Hi Valencia
Thanks for your comments, and I am glad you have found things you agree with. It’s a good thing to think these things through ourselves.
Be well.
Peter said
I have to say and admit that I too have had the same thoughts and concepts as Walter Pearson. I too am a Pastor and was brought up in a very fundamental doctrinally based church as well that followed the commandments and the letter of the law. However I have to believe that God loves us all in spite of. What was the purpose in Jesus dying on the cross, leaving glory to come to this sin-sick world to save a man who did not want to be saved. His dying has to be the purpose and foundation for our salvation. Because He died, I live through grace. Pastor Pearson, stand strong and watch the salvation of the sains.
Nic Paton said
Thanks Peter. Do your congregation want to hear this message?
Peter said
Nic, I am not sure if my congreation is ready but I too must begin to preach about the unfailing love of Christ and that through Christ death, we live and it gives us the right to live eternally in spite of our fallacies. Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection would have all been in vain if not for the saving of the sinner.
Nic Paton said
Peter, I am with you in this desire to embrace radical grace.
I wish you well in your journey, and always remain available for encouragement should you need it.
Where are you based?
Mary Hall said
God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for the sins of all. That part is true. However, in order to receive this gift of salvation, we must confess our sins. What is the point of a church, a preacher, a teacher of religion if everyone is going to heaven? My prayer for Carlton Pearson is that his eyes are opened to the truth of the Gospel. It is scary to think one who preached the Word for so long could abandon it for a doctrine that is totally opposite.
Of course, this theory is appealing to all who want to go to heaven, but choose to live a life style that is contrary to God’s Word. There is a way that seems right but the end is death.
Nic Paton said
Mary
Do you think that Pearson has not “confessed his sins?” because he holds a different view of salvation to yours? That would be rather presumptuous and self-righteous, don’t you think?
And are you implying that those who believe in Universal Restoration, are “choosing a lifestyle contrary to God’s Word?”. That would be an astounding leap of logic.
How do you know that Pearsons eyes are “not open to the truth of the gospel”? Simply because you disagree with him?
The doctrine of Universal salvation, which you say is the “opposite” of the gospel, was standard belief in the early church, until the Roman church declared it heresy in about 650. Have you looked into this part of church history in any depth?
I look forward to your comments…
liquidlight said
hi Mary.
i’m as guilty as anyone else of making assumptions about others. while it might offer us a sense of certainty and reassure us that we have the right beliefs, it achieves little else other than polarising, separating and building walls.
Christ said that who is not for me is against me. this also implies that whoever is not against Him is for Him. Pearson has paid far more on a personal level than the majority of his critics, for his standpoint – he has also spent a lot more time than the majority of them in coming to his belief in universal restoration.
i hope you respond to Nic’s questions about your assumptions and continue as part of the conversation.
go well.
russ.
Ed said
I’m a universalist, but I do not feel that Pearson’s journey should be celebrated, because I am a Christian universalist. Pearson is not a Christian. I’m sure he wouldn’t even mind me saying this since he has recently come out with a book entitled “God is not a Christian.” Need I say more? Let’s let Carlton say it:
“I see Christianity these days as a cult following. When Jesus said, ‘Take up your cross and follow me,’ he was talking to 12 people. He didn’t want the crowds. But they MADE HIM INTO A GOD because it was a good business.” — from http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-09-20/news/falling-star/
(emphasis mine. Be sure to notice he believes Jesus was not even a god much less the God)
…uh, really? Were the apostles wealthy business men who never suffered for their faith or was there a cross to be taken up? Perhaps the problem is that it was only a business to Carlton; he was one of the health and wealth charismatics with a big church. Well, his church disappeared, but he’s certainly still in business now as a darling of the liberal press. I’m sure he commands hefty speech and appearance fees. Despite his “transformation,” I think nothing has changed: it’s still all about Carlton.
There are plenty more quotes where that came from and you can easily find them for yourself. It seems it is hard for the man to open his mouth without insulting Jesus or those who wrote the Bible. I saw him on TV saying that the book of Revelation resulted from John going out to exile in his rage and bitterness toward the Romans and having dreams and hallucinations in this fit of rage.
I am someone who would like people to see that universalism is not incompatible with the Christian faith. Carlton Pearson is very bad publicity for universalism.
Ed
Nic Paton said
Ed
Need you say more? Well, yes, I think you should. You are making big leaps of logic in your assertions,
I am a Christian universalist. ->
He wrote a book entitled “God is not a Christian.” ->
Therefore, Pearson is not a Christian.
I think you are doing yourself a disservice by this.
1. Be wary of condemning that which you disagree with just because you disagree.
2. I’ve not read the book, but I think its quite accurate to say that Jesus was not a Christian. Jesus is G-d, and its his followers, some decades later, who became known as Christians. By that I don’t have a problem with the title.
“I’m sure he wouldn’t even mind me saying this” – How are you so sure of this?
“they MADE HIM INTO A GOD because it was a good business.”
I know it sounds like it implies he “isn’t God”, but I read it to mean that his followers made him into something other that what he was/is. I don’t think it should be used to imply Pearson rejects him.
But I thank you for your comments, and I’d be glad to be kept informed of his progress. The article you linked to (thanks) doenst contain anything I havent already read about him.
However, it is always possible that he has gone into some sort of error, but that its the risk for every prophet.
Ed, you present an interesting mix of conservatism and liberalism, being a Universalist as you say you are.
What do you believe about salvation and universalism?
Ernestine Renee Burns said
would you please delete my name and e-mail address from this site you deleted my message so apparently it wasn’t good enough for you i don’t know why i was vile or rude or using profanity i;m a chrisian . please delete my personal information from here and this message or i will take legal steps.
Nic Paton said
I’m sorry Ernestine, I have no record of your entry. I have never intentionally deleted anyones contribution, no matter what they said. I cannot find your post in spam, either.
revitalized said
for the traditionalist to come around. Of course some never will, but I must say that in recent months I have been revitalized with the truth that has been revealed to me. I am of pentecostal background and you know what that means. They like to preach it hot. But my whole like and I just truned 56, I have had many questions about the scriptures that never would add up. I have preached the gospel and worked in church in music and teaching for many years, but I was growing weary. In all my years I had not even heard of the Universalist doctrine and the church history of its embrace, or been exposed to the realities of mistranslations that exist. I knew there were quite a few, but had never pined them all down, until being led to this truth and even found a local church Pastored by an old friend who beleives whole hearted in Universalism. The evidence in the word is overwhealming. You just cannot get over all the scriptures with the word “all”. It truely is a Gospel of Inclusion. God will have his way and his way is Universal Restoration. Since God lives outside of time, he can easily take all the ages necessary to accomplish his will. His will is the only will that counts. The hardliners for eternal damnation will just have to come to grips with it sooner or later.
BISHOP CARLTON PEARSON SCANDAL: | gospelmusicbites.com said
[...] Guys, i was browsing the internet and came across this article written by Sound and Silence, about Bishop Carlton Pearson. Check it out and let us know what you think of this article.. Please [...]
Jon said
Love God, love others.
I applaud Bishop Pearson.
The reign of religious terror is coming to an end and I am so glad to see it.
Here are the rules all wrapped up in a nut-shell. LOVE GOD,LOVE OTHERS.
In Christ love for all
Jon
loopegodel said
the scandal is that this is a scandal. for another view of how twisted authoritarian religion can get, watch this scary video of Tom Cruise talking about scientology:
http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress
soundandsilence stocktake « Sound and Silence said
[...] The scandal of bishop Carlton Pearson (94 comments / 4,762 views): When I came out in support of Carlton Pearson in his bold evangelical refutation of hell, I had no idea that the debate would become the most heated of all my posts. [...]
Serita said
I fell into your blog by looking for, of all things, an image of the “as christians we apologize for being self righteous hypocritical bastards” that the Revolution NYC church uses. My daughter has been going to what I feel is a little too radical, “cutting edge” evangelical church for a little over a month. Although happy that she was in church and taking a great interest in it, after a conversation with her yesterday about “once saved, always saved” I felt that I needed to look for something of substance to temper what I feel are her a bit over zealous views. You see, I was her 30 years ago and through lots of life experience, lots of thought and prayer I’ve come to believe that even though “winning souls for Christ” through fear can be very effective in the short term, showing God’s love and grace will actually heal and help people when real life knocks you on your butt.
Anyway, as I said, I stumbled into your blog and have spent the last three hours sifting through the blogs and comments. When I came to this one about Carlton Pearson I felt I had to speak. Those 30 years ago I mentioned above when the charismatic movement was just starting to get going strong, Carlton would preach at a couple of the local churches. Whenever he was in the area it was a treat to go hear him preach. Now this was before the big church, the huge ministry or congregation that would come later, he was more or less an itinerate preacher. He had such an annointing on his life and one of the gifts mentioned in scripture and charismatic teaching, I’m not sure if it would be called prophecy or word of knowledge, but he prayed for me and spoke to me personally on more than one occasion and told me things that God was going to do in my life, things that no one would have just “known”, things that came to pass. I mention all that to say this, I have a hard time believing that someone who was so immersed in God would come to the conclusions that he has lightly. I don’t know how much I believe universalism myself, but the fact that someone of his caliber has come to this decision makes me stop and take a look. And think. And come to my own conclusion that as with much else there is much I do not understand, there probably is a kernel of truth here and as with many other things I have had to do is leave it with God. I know that He and His grace is much bigger than we like to give credit.
Thank you for giving voice to your insights and questions and giving those who come here food for thought. I’m pleased to make your aquantance and I’ll be back on a regular basis.
Nic Paton said
Hi Serita
Thank you so much for your well considered comment.
There is a tension created between our faith in someone and the mental assent we allow ourselves to give. So if you decided long ago that Carlton was a trustworthy person, and then he starts saying things that contradict your normal ways of thinking, you are caught in a quandry.
Not too far from what must have happened to the disciples of Jesus, where they basically believed in him but his teaching kept on perplexing thier familiar thoughts. They’d have to make decisions of faith all the time.
If you have read my accompanying post (http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2007/02/21/universal-restoration/)where I lay out my reasons for embracing a costly type of universalism, you will see that I too have travelled from standard evangelicalsm towards a more generous position, giving consideration to the biblical message along the way.
I’m glad you have got something from this – many blessings to you.
Russ said
in my experience, most christians that i talk to about hell, experience a significant level of tension & dis-ease while doing so. i intuit that many of them feel a confusing antagonism between the concept of hell and the G-d of they believe in, or at least want to believe in – i.e. a being of wholeness who reveals a love that includes and yet goes beyond mere retribution.
Nic Paton said
it’s interesting how this discussion rumbles on behind the scenes anongst a few.
but in my day to day, I don’t encounter many people who are interested in discussing it.
it seems only the evangelical / radical wings care: on the left the UR enthused and on the right those with vested interests who require there to be a place of unending punitive separation.
this thought based on a review of the issue in the light of real life.
Vicki said
Sad to hear, although not surprizing, the story of the Bishop’s journey through this world. Sad also to see how evil the world is becoming. It seems to grow worse on a daily basis. People seem to care less and less for one another and have no respect for themselves or anyone else. All I know is that I am a child of God and He loves me….of this I am certain. I am far from perfect and I am unworthy of God’s love, according to some, however I know He still loves me. People who think this way I feel sorry for and I pray for them, cause I wouldn’t want to be them when we each have to be accountable for ourselves before God. I love other people. Some I don’t like the behavior of too much. Many I don’t agree with, but love them all. I applaud this man who has listened to His God and been obedient in the face of such opposition. Bravo and Bless You Bishop Pearson. See you in Heaven
nic paton said
Hello Vicki – congratulations on being the 100th commenter.
Thanks for your thoughts. Truth generally does not come easily, and the prophets take the brunt of bringing it to bear.
Barbara said
I applaud the courage of Carlton Pearson. I was a child when I realized that it did not make sense that a loving Father (God) would lock his children in a house with a monster (the Devil) running loose. What Loving Father would condemn most of the worlds population to an eternity of being consumed by flames. It didn’t make sense and it still doesn’t. If we are to believe that Jesus came to save us then Jesus saves ALL OF US. We are all of us God’s children or none of us are. Have people so little faith in God that they believe there is not room in God’s heart for all of us? That would be a pretty small God indeed, wouldn’t it?
mezzo said
I can’t believe it took me over a year to stumble onto this blog. I’m so glad I did. Partly because Nic and some others have packed it full of rich history in your research. On a personal note – I used to live in Tulsa and was a member of Carlton’s congregation. I know him and his family and have been angered and appalled at the attacks made on Gina and even the children. The venom spewed by so many about his spirit and character mystify me, as those judgments fall into opposition of the commandment “thou shall not judge”. I have to admit, when Carlton’s teachings came to light, I initially had to struggle with the idea that Hitler might be in heaven. My arrogance as a human thought “how dare I would have to share heavenly space with the likes of tyrants and monsters!” Then, my faith began to develop muscle as I realized God is God and hence, big enough to pull this reconciliation off (with a few hitches, of course). For those that would argue inclusion is just a license to sin, I say ‘don’t stub your toe on the way out of the faith dome” – because, for me, my God of inclusion inspires me to do just the opposite of sin freely. He inspires me to NOT sin – …. I know I’ve missed out on many months of good conversation and debate, but I’ll be around looking at some of the other blogs. I need my faith to continue growing. My humanity demands that it grow to survive. Thanks for this intelligent place to rest my soul while encouraging my mind.
nic paton said
Mezzo – I thank you for a report from close to home – it’s much appreciated when we can become very abstracted and overly theological.
I think of the Hell doctrine as something of a demon – when you tamper with it it starts to snarl.
So what are you doing now – are you part of a group who is Inclusive? Or are you recovering and chilling out a while?
Lazarus and Inclusion « Sound and Silence said
[...] The Scandal of Bishop Carlton Pearson [...]
Kevin Turner said
Love is but one side of God. To say that God loves “so much” or “too much” that he won’t pull trigger on those who reject or blaspheme is non-scriptural. This is a dangerous doctrine to teach or preach. This is much greater than Bishop Carlton Pearson who I sincerely admired for numerous years. No one has the right to change scripture. There is no bible version, translation or otherwise that refutes holy scripture. What’s next, no heaven because someone was watching TV and heard a voice saying there wasn’t one?
Scripture declares that there is no name under heaven whereby men can be saved. So now through this doctrine of inclusion anyone can call anyname and be saved? This is heresy. This hurts to the core.
Nic Paton said
Kevin
Thanks for commenting. I am sorry you feel hurt; this is not my intention at all.
“Scripture declares that there is no name under heaven whereby men can be saved”. I accept that. Jesus is the savior of all.
But where did I say, or anyone for that matter, “Call upon any name and be saved?”. You can’t just make stuff up because you disgree with something.
I am concerned about your image of the trigger-pulling God. Although I do see some “hard to accept” acts by Yahweh in the old testament, the god Jesus presents us IS all love. And love does not preclude judgement, either. There will be judgement, I also accept that.
Inclusion only makes sense in the light of the work of the cross. Any other basis for it is in my opinion doomed. For me, the very best foundation for any universal salvation is in the new testament.
Lastly, in what way do you think scripture is being changed by Inclusion? If anything, scripture that is usually ignored is being re-discovered.
Joseph said
Hey, I have read some comments but not all so forgive me if I repeat something so here goes. My comment is also a concern, Bishop Pearson (and those who believe him) are forgetting one simple truth, or rather many simple truths. 1) Ezekiel 18 talks about the personal responsibility for sin and many other statments in the Bible state jugdement on those who DO NOT REPENT and STOP THIER SINFUL WAYS. These judgements are on cities as well as countries and many of them say “to the third and fourth generations.” That being said, the people that the Bishop saw on TV were poor and Muslim and going, you know. He felt sorry for them but whether or not they are up for jugdement is not ours to determine but rather Gods and not just any but God Almighty. In Romans it says should we continue in sin and let grace abound, CERTINly NOT.
2) Hell as a metephor, ok, here’s the thing Isaiah 14 says that Lucifer will be in the pit. So does Ezekiel, and Revelations. Joseph Smith (not me, the Mormon) said there was no hell and people thought He was nuts, what has changed? Paul said in Galations : 6-10 if anyone including me (meaning Paul) preaches ANY OTHER GOSPEL whether an angel from heaven or otherwise it is FALSE let GOD be TRUE and EVERY MAN a (what, wait for it) LIAR! So going by that I would rather put my trust in the ALMIGHTY that said I am not a man that I should lie. “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.
As it is written:
That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”
(Romans 3:4)
I have said enough for know and I would like to have phone conversation with the Bishop and tell him myself in a loving and respectful way of course.
In the Lords service Joseph R. Smith have a nice day
Gavin Marshall said
Nic – you really can’t deprive these guys of hell. It’s almost as bad as me saying the devil is a myth.
The problem is really psychological: Some people really need to be able to compare themselves to other ’sinners’ being damned to firey torture for eternity in order be able to see themselves as ‘loving and respectful’. It’s a kind of sado-masochism, and as much as I find it distasteful and highly narrow minded, people have the religious right to judge others. Sure, Jesus said we mustn’t judge and all that, but let’s not get into that shall we? It’s much more fun to quote old testament prophets out of context and capitalise GOSPEL in a way that makes it sound like a weapon of mass destruction.
What does ‘gospel’ mean by the way? I read somewhere that it’s supposed to mean ‘good news’, but that can’t be right can it?
nic paton said
Hi Gavin – I think you are right, if people want hell, let them keep it.
The psychological component to this problem cannot be underestimated, the need to feel better than others.
Well you’ll like this – gospel is old english for “good spell” (or tidings).
So do we have a majikal religion on our hands?
Gavin Marshall said
hmm – don’t know about a magickal religion, but this certainly seems like an old, and very powerful spell that people are under… some people were crucified for trying to break it.
nic paton said
Joseph – thanks but your comment is a bit confusing, really. But you seem to be pointing out 1) We should take personal responsibility for sin; I agree.
and 2) Hell is not a metaphor. I’m afraid you are not convincing me with your argument.
And what does this mean: “Muslim and going, you know…”? I don’t know, can you spell it out please.
russ said
this post flares up from time to time, like a spark in the wilderness. two things spring to mind:
1) the bible seems to lend weight to both everlasting judgement & destruction on the one side, and the restoration of ALL through Christ, on the other – what does this say about G-d, who must have foreseen the division that would ensue?
2) the idea that Christ might finally achieve the salvation/healing of ALL beings draws incredible anger and wrath from many christians – what does it say about such christians, who’s hearts do not cause them to scurry to their bibles in the hope that it might be true?
Russ….
Joseph said
Nic, I was trying to say that when the Bishop saw the people on TV they were poor and miserable and He said to himself “could a loving God send these people to hell after they suffered on earth” to which the Bishop claimed to here from God and say “is that what you think we’re doing.” I was trying to say that these people are not deprived of the love of God they, just like anyone else (John 3:16), simply have to call on the name of Jesus (Acts 16:25-33) to be saved. But, my friend, the arguement is about the Gospel preached is to be what has been spoken from the begining and again I reference Gal. 6-10. If we, or an angel from heaven (or Bishop Carlton Pearson, Mahatma Ghandi, Joseph Smith, Dali Lama, the guy who founded the muslims, buddha, me, you), preach any other gospel… The point is no one should be preaching anything besides what has been originally preached. The fact that Hell is not an actual place is not a new idea in realty it’s really old. In Isaiah 14 the Bible tells of the future destination of Lucifer in the PIT or Hell. If there is no Hell then what is the point of heaven, meaning why would God kick Lucifer out of heaven and say that anyone who does not worship him ,(God), will be punished , was kidding “Hey, I’m going eternally punish everyone who sins and does not believe in me and worship me, PSYCH!!!” I don’t think so. God has given us the right to freewill to believe anything we want to, so unfortunately, we will not know for sure who is right or wrong but I hope and pray that we all make the right desicion. “As for me and my house we will serve the Lord” Joshua 24:15
In His Service, Joseph R Smith
nic paton said
Russ – magelike observations, my friend. It’s quite true, the issue of Hell seems to not lead to openminded study, but deep emotional reponses.
What does that say about G-d? Well, for one that G-d is not a textbook, not Law, but Grace. And grace is full of ambiguity and lovingkindness.
Theres an old version of the Universal Reconcilliation article on wiki that lays out the pro and anit verses quite well: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_reconciliation&oldid=116254117#Scriptural_arguments
It’s a worthy excersise going through these and justifying to onesself what one belives.
nic paton said
Joseph – thanks for continuing the conversation, I appreciate that.
You say “no one should be preaching anything besides what has been originally preached”. There are 2 problems in this:
1. How then do we progress in our understanding of G-d? If there is only 1 fixed “gospel”, how can we know what that is, if you are referring to a set of beliefs that were around at some time in the past. Is it in Jesus day? Or Isaiah’s? Or in the 4th Century, when the Cannonical Bible was compiled? Or at some othe time?
I say G-d is active now, and this is the 21st Century, and we have been given the intellegence and the imagination to grasp the truth of G-d in our context.
2. If you are suggesting that our current notion of Hell as an ever burning place of punishment for sinners is the same as Isaiah’s concept of “the pit” then you are simply ignoring the vast majority of biblical scholarship in favour of your own superstitions.
Verse 15 says “But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.” The word used here is undoubteldly “Sheol” which means ultimately “the unpercieved”, although it is translated as grave and pit as well. The Hebrew Sheol and even its Greek counterpart Hades is NOT the same thing as the catholic/evangelical “Hell”, whose sources are more from outside the Hebrew culture.
Gavin Marshall said
Joseph, I would also advise you to reread that passage in Isaiah and let it say what it says, without reading the whole myth of ‘the devil’ into it. That might clear up the whole circular logic about if there’s no hell then what’s the point of heaven. That’s a good question, though…
The problem with fundamentalism (well one of the problems) is that it’s the whole deal or nothing at all. You have to make the assumption that your point of view is the only right way of looking at things (and of course the usual answer is that it’s what the bible says – not realising that the bible is rather tricky to interpret). You see – the minute you question one of these beliefs, like 6 day creation, or the sacred belief in hell, the whole deal falls apart, because your underlying foundation is the assumption that you are right. It’s a terribly tiring way of living, I would think, because you’re never really free to be honest and to really existentially grapple with your own doubts and humanity. But I guess fundamentalists are so busy trying to defend their rightness, that this never really occurs to them..
russ said
insofar as “fundamentalist” has been generalized to mean “strong adherence to any set of beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity”, i don’t have a problem with it in principle.
for example, christian X holds the view that the bible forbids homosexual sex and yet is warm, respectful & loving to people in general, including homosexuals. non-christian Y does not have a problem with homosexuality per se, but his/her approach to life and people in general is one of indifference & distance, or as is so often the case, a hazy “i’m okay, you’re okay” political correctness.
“fundamentalist” has become a slur word & often applied without thought. while some “fundamentalists” act like intolerant ******’s, holding certain fundamentals need not necessarily be “a problem”.
timvictor said
Nic,
I believe it’s time to distinguish between the development of the notion of Heaven and Hell that continues though many have thrown purgatory out of the picture from the tragectories of Scripture. The notion of salvation as fire insurance related to that has been commented on a number of times and by numerous individuals.
It seems to me that you’re building up a straw man and burning it, which I applaud, but I’m not behind this as a bait-and-switch manuever I see.
I believe that guys like Joseph are trying to have a conversation around affirming and establising tangents from Scripture while you’re using Scripture to deny a mistruth built from the Scriptures. I don’t believe that he, and others, are responding out of a psychological need for Hell. That’s an unfair and emotive statement to make.
Sure, don’t over literalise imagery used in Scripture whether “abraham’s bosom” or “fire” and “darkness” or “reward” or “mark on the right hand or forehead”. But don’t erase the notion of resurrection of the dead unto judgement either. That’s a clear tangent expressed in various ways.
Let’s not get into the double bind between “How can a loving Godde permit evil to endure?” and “What a bastard, you mean S/He is going to hold us accountable for our lives?”
Nic, perhaps it’s time to move on from Bishop Carlton and to present your version of the gospel.
nic paton said
Russ – I agree that we need to revisit our cliches, and that “fundamental” in not bad per se. We have mis/used the word, attaching an ism, to pin our own cliches of intolerance and conservatism on.
nic paton said
Tim – you are breaking up a bit…
I think I have given Joseph a fair enough answer, based on 2 aspects I picked up in his comment. I can see that he is trying to converse; I am trying to as well.
I really don’t understand what you are saying by “bait-and-switch manuever”?
I’m not keeping the Carlton Pearson thread alive on purpose, I am just responding to those who comment on it. As for “my version of the gospel”, well that is being presented in the wider context of posts, as well as in F2F life, I would hope.
My last effort to summarise my views (eschatology, fundamentals and in paticular Cannon FW Farrar) to you, on the post http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/lazarus-and-inclusion/ has not yet met with any response.
timvictor said
Last I checked there was nothing new on that post so I wrote here. I’ll read that post and respond to it.
I know this post has a life of it’s own, I don’t mean to imply any sense of stuckness or to knock the conversation. I just wanted to help clarify the conversation at least from my POV.
It’s just that I believe there are two trajectories: 1) a deliberate rejection of the misbeliefs concerning Heaven & Hell that is popular among Christians as well as those who aren’t that are considered to be what Christians believe or ought to believe; and, 2) the formulation of the biblical trajectories related to salvation, judgement and the everlasting states.
It just seems, more often than not, that in trying to debunk 1) that 2) is included therein. In rejecting a particular formulation of H&H it would seem that you, and others subscribing Universal Salvation, are not sufficiently grappling with a) the Scriptures on sin, personal accountability and salvation on one hand and b) the beliefs of the early church. Both predate the notions being rejected.
I believe the conversation should move from the debunking of an outmoded view toward a construction of a view rooted in Scripture and it’s trajectories.
Cody Stauffer said
A very healthy and helpful approach to a “new” way to look at hell: Brian McLaren’s “The Last Word (And The Word After That)”
I’ve been very interested in Brother Pearson for awhile now, and can’t say that I am surprised at the utterly ungraceful reactions to him. The guy is simply embracing the radical message (and life) of Jesus and the incredible sandal of grace, as well as coming to a full reality of what Jesus was talking about when he alluded to Gehenna and such- and how we treat one another in the here and now. Ironic, isn’t it?
Love you stuff, man! Would you ever be interested in contributing over at my blog? I have some stuff in the works- if you’re interested, I’ll run them by you.
Cody
http://www.anewkindofminister.blogspot.com
Nic Paton said
Hi Cody – Yes I think McLarens book is superb.
Have you read Carltons book?
I’m certainly interested in what you are doing, and will drop by soon.
Thanks for your interest.
Vince said
I saw his story on MSNBC and was touched. Hell is a myth that religious institutions have used to control their followers. I’m so glad someone is standing up and saying so loudly and clearly. I am a dedicated Christian who does NOT believe in hell. How could a God of love and mercy create someone for the express purpose of sending that person to hell and everlasting torment? Carlton is an amazing individual. I truly admire him!
Josh said
The reactions towards Bishop Pearson’s views are shocking and deeply saddening. As far as my personal opinion on the topic is concerned, C.S. Lewis’ perspective on hell in “The Great Divorce” still make the most sense to me. It neither denies hell altogether nor defends it without giving any coherent rationale.
Brown said
Carlton’s associate pastor, Jesse Williams Jr., passed away on 12/13/08. Just FYI
Brown said
FROM CARLTON ABOUT THE DEATH OF HIS ASSOCIATE PASTOR. I WAS VERY TOUCHED:
I spent all last weekend by his bedside there in Orlando. I considered him both my brother and my spiritual son and he knew it. I spoke and prayed with him around midnight his time Friday night/Saturday morning. He was unable to speak but was alert and able to understand and attempted to respond, as best he could. He seemed to have known he would go on or close to Friday and indicated the same to us. I encouraged him to relax and release which he ultimately did.
He was determined to live right up to his last breath, smiling and attempting to even sing. What a worshipper he was, is and will always be as a memory in our hearts and minds.
I quoted the scripture to him from the Psalms where David said, “Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because God is with me.”
I reminded him that death is only a shadow, or shade of light and life. It is an extravagant illusion that seems something its not. Death is fatal, but not final. We of Christ Consciousness are fully aware of the other and etherness of God, personified in the Christ Person and Principle and therein we have hope eternal and in the eternal.
Nic Paton said
Brown, thank you very much for keeping us informed, it is appreciated.
El Russell said
You all talk shit. The man is not afraid to stand up for himself and people on here talking about they feel hurt and cursing him out for speaking his heart. You wanna curse him out and then think you not going to the same damn hell you sending him to with your mouth and words.
I curse because I don’t give a damn … that mean I’m going hell too, because ou all know God better than anybody else!
Get a life and I will too!
Nic Paton said
El – that’s particularly unhelpful.
Donna54 said
Hi Nic:
I’m a staunch heterosexual Baptist. I have always believed in the doctrine of “inclusion” (I didn’t call it that). I never could stomach so-called Christians damming others for their sins as if they were “sinless”. The thing that brought me to reject the rhetoric of the church were the hateful sermons coming from the pulpits on homesexuality and the death of Matthew Shepherd. I prayed to the Lord to give me wisdom on this issue because if this is what believing in God was about, I wasn’t having anything to do with it and I guess it just meant I WAS GOING TO HELL.
My mother always told me, when you don’t understand something about the Bible or about your faith, pray and then leave it alone. You will receive an answer. Well I did and I wasn’t even expecting it. I was at work at my computer working when something in my spirit said “I didn’t tell them to do anything about it…” Not realizing what was going on, I kept on working but sort of talking to myself said “Do anything about what? Why did I think that?” Again my spirit spoke and said “You don’t have to do anything about homesexuallity…it’s in the Bible so that you know that I created it, it exists, it’s a part of humanity. Those scriptures about a man not bedding down with another man or woman with a woman are intended for YOU to understand what you are seeing and to undestand that YOU the heterosexual…YOU’RE NOT to do it.”
Overtime, what I gathered from MY spirit is this. Whether I understand homosexualilty or not, I am not to persecute others. I am also to stand up to those who try to persecute others because of who they are. And when it comes to sin, ALL OF US have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling of the Lord NOT MAN.
That’s why I also know that Carlton Pearson is RIGHT.
I COULD NOT STAND CARLTON PEARSON when he was with the evangelicals. I thought he was the biggest phony and biggest opportunist among the evangelicals. When I saw the special they did about him on MSNBC (I think) and heard this man’s testimony, I ACTUALLY BEGAN TO SHOUT and give praise because I KNEW CARLTON PEARSON WAS TELLING THE TRUTH and that this MAN was justifying something the Lord had put down in my soul. This MAN could’ve kept all of this to himself and kept living the life of luxury he was in. BUT HE GAVE IT ALL UP for what he felt the Lord wanted him to do!
God is blessing Carlton Pearson in ways that his enemies will never understand.
Donna54 said
El:
Unlike Nic, I enjoyed your comments. You’re what my grandmother would call “salt of the earth people.” You may not say the right words but your HEART makes up for it.
God bless you – you’re 100% right!
Oh by the way – Jesus called people names too. When one of the Pharises sent for him Jesus told them “…no, bring that sly fox to ME.”
Nic Paton said
Donna54: I see in your words a respect for the heart and intuitive approaches to knowing God.
I am wondering how Carlton went from “phoney” to “truthteller” so absolutely in your opinion. To what do you attribute that change of perception?
I’m curious you call yourself “staunch” – is that for real? Are you happy as a Baptist?
Thanks for sharing, and for trying to hear old El out.
ruZL said
this post continues to attract attention & passion & will no doubt continue to do so. i have seen a number of mainstream evangelicals initially warm to the hope of universal restoration – the ultimate salvation of all – only to recoil back into traditional hell teachings, due partly to the fear of breaking from the mainstream. i cannot blame people for such a reaction, being a reluctant heretic myself.
as for El Russell, this person is a mystery to me. i hope he/she visits & responds again. there is room for all. while this person is not an alter-ego of myself, as some might have suspected, i relate to the frustration the concept of UR brings up. it could become THE central point of debate in the church in the coming years.
for the generous & optimistic of heart, it can almost seem too good to be true.
no mind has conceived….
go well all.
ruZL…
Sandie Bohrer said
My prayers are with Carlton Pearson and his family. Though I wonder
if the believers of Inclusivity are looking for an easy way out. The Bible, God’s Holy Word, has not changed nor has God.
Vishalin said
Hi Nic. Thanks for posting this thread.
Thanks also to everyone who have taken their time to share for the benefit of all. If you are following this thread, I thought this debate would add some interesting insights. Carlton Pearson is in it as well as my version of the modern day daring defender of all things deliciously doctrinal, (drum roll) Mark Driscoll.
And one of my favourite authors Deepak Chopra. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5UPW9D26oE
Also become aware of the written comments after each video. Hilarious.
Vishalin said
Oh there are ten vids here (bandwith…. bandwith) and its almost end of the month. So good luck to all the end of the month salticrax snackers.
Andrew(feotu) said
Hi there Vishalin
Thanks for the heads up on the videos on Youtube.
I watch all 10 parts, so much for going slow on bandwidth consuption!!
They were well worth watching
Be blessed
Andrew
Nic Paton said
Vishalin
Thanks for this. And for being the first person to comment with a video!
I shall get back to you when I have watched it…
Nic Paton said
Vishalin – a really engaging debate.
Interestingly and unexpectedly, I found Chopra just as dogmatic as Driscoll. I was also surprized by how restrained Driscoll was.
All in all there was a real progression represented, from sentimentalist to fundamentalist to post-fundamentalist to mystic. I do give credit to the those on the fundy side because thats been my journey. But they need to realise that their framing story is not sustainable, and they have to enter Generosity.
I’d like to discuss Chopra further with you. To me, he represents the unapologetic East. It is challenging and refreshing to hear his no bullshit, scientifically informed view, which circumvents the Western mire, but reveals a few pitfalls of the Eastern one.
It was great to see Carlton up there. He is really honest, and I think he has not yet “arrived” at his new destination. But that makes me like him more.